Nissan LEAF warranty and the battery. Just what is it? That is always the question.
We already know what the warranty will be for cars like the Chevrolet Volt, Fisker Karma, etc. — 10 years/150,000 miles if they want to qualify to the AT-PZEV, CARB standard. (Well for the most part anyway, there could be a split warranty situation for some states not adopting CARB standards which would put it at 8/80, if the auto maker so chose)
Quite frankly a 10/150 warranty is obscene. It was introduced by CARB (California Air Resources Board) with strong hybrids in mind (like the Toyota Prius), and to basically hold down small and/or ‘risky’ startups from getting into the business and potentially leaving customers with sub par equipment. (Think a dozen lead acid batteries in a trunk).
Asking a manufacturer to build a lithium ion battery pack that holds up for 10 years/150,000 miles is not much different then telling your kids to go practice playing catch out in the yard with a raw egg…at some point, that egg is going to get broken.
Too stringent battery standards is why at one point GM said they were baking the cost of a entire replacement pack into the price of the Volt, and also why they only use 50% of the batteries capacity. Battery maker A123 even petition CARB on the matter a year and a half ago saying that their was no way they could expect their batteries to last that long.
But what of the LEAF? Will CARB get in Nissan’s way to the supposed benefit of the consumer? Nope.
CARB has little interest in the LEAF. In fact it has none at all. If a car doesn’t give off emissions, it does not fall inside their mandate. Basically Nissan can do whatever they feel like when it comes to warranteeing their 24 kWh pack. So what do they feel like offering?
“Depending on the usage, we expect the Li-ion battery of Nissan Leaf to have 70~80% of capacity remaining after 5~10 years of use. Concerning warranty, we plan on providing a warranty coverage suitable for a major component of an automobile.”
So lets scratch 10/150 off the list and see what warranty Nissan offers now. Like most auto makers they have a ‘bumper to bumper’ warranty which is 3 years/36,000 miles, and a limited powertrain coverage of 5 years/60,000. Most likely it will fall in one of these two camps. But which one? To the phones!
I asked a Nissan dealer if they would cover my dead battery, saying the car was 4 years old and had 40,000 miles on it. They said they would not, it was covered only under the 3/36 and even at that they would only pay a pro-rated portion of the cost. /ouch
From there, with this knowledge in hand, I went back to Nissan to get another comment on the warranty, once again I ran into “the details of the warranty are not yet confirmed,” but Nissan did add, “our warranty coverage will certainly be competitive.”
So what is competitive? There is not a lot of pure BEVs on the road at the moment. The Roadster from Tesla is a pretty good analog, they warranty their 53 kWh battery as part of their ‘bumper to bumper’ 3 year/36,000 mile coverage. A even better comparison is the i-MiEV, a all electric car coming from Mitsubishi to North America in April of 2011, the small 80 mile EV currently also comes with a 3 year warranty wherever it is sold internationally. No word on US warranty specs yet.
So for right now, a 3 year/36,000 miles warranty seems light, but lets keep our fingers crossed for a 5/60.
UPDATE (10/22/10): Nissan has gone with a limited 8/100, but only on power to the motor and not to pack capacity
![Will Ferrell Spotted Driving a Nissan LEAF [Video]](http://nissan-leaf.net/wp-content/themes/bigfoot/includes/timthumb.php?src=
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If a Volt has a 10 year battery warranty, I don’t see a 3 year warranty for the Leaf battery being competitive.
But as long as the supply of electric vehicles is limited, Nissan can offer whatever they want.
Nissan will be offering hundreds of thousands of electric vehicles in the next couple of years. If Nissan expects to sell them, they won’t want bad battery stories impeding sales three years from now.
A five year warranty seems to be in Nissan’s best interest. Long enough to allow their volume sales to proceed.
Gordon Green(Quote)
One of the factors in our decision to wait 2 or 3 years was the unknown warranty. With our 30,000 mls. a year history leasing is out of the question and we would want a little more confidence in the battery to meet our needs for 150,000 miles. When we purchase in 2 or 3 years, I would like a vehicle with 150+ mile range and a 100,000 mile+ warranty on all drive train components. The invertors and motors are not cheap to replace either as some Prius owners can tell you.
blind guy(Quote)
I think that a pro-rated warranty makes sense for items that are expected to wear or degrade with time or use. Tires usually have such a warranty.
Taking that point of view as a given for the sake of discussion, perhaps 100% coverage for 3 years or 36,000 miles, declining to 80% at 5 years or 60,000 miles, then to 0% at 7 or 8 years or 80-100,000 miles might be reasonable for both consumers and manufacturers?
The ‘years’ figures I suggest are based the “70~80% of capacity remaining after 5~10 years of use” statement. The alternative miles figures may not be appropriate for batteries.
JEff(Quote)
Wow!!! Depreciation will be huge. Very few people will buy a car that is looking at an $8,000. to $10,000 bill in 3 to 5 years.
Stan Stein(Quote)
How will the batteries hold up? This is the over-riding question on long term Leaf (and BEV in general) success.
If Nissan would offer up an 8/80/80 warranty(8 years, 80,000 miles, 80% of original battery capacity) then Leaf buyers can drive off the lot with confidence.
I’m not expecting an 8/80/80, but I do hope Nissan will at least do some sort of pro-rating out to the 5/60 point. If they can’t , there’s going to be a lot of trepidation among potential buyers once the “hard core early adopter” crowd has been depleted.
Carcus(Quote)
Nissan didn’t say the battery was dead after 3 years/36K, they just really don’t want to warrant it any longer than they have to I am sure…no different that the 3/36 warranty on all over Nissan’s other product.
Nissan said for most people the pack should still be delivering 70% of capacity after 10 years.
Jay (Statik) Cole(Quote)
The battery life is my biggest fear. Lead acid batteries can only make it through two Arizona summers before they are replaced. I am not sure how the Prius batteries are holding up and if people are getting 100,000 miles on them like elsewhere. Hopefully they give us an 8/80/80 and not the standard 3/36. I am sure the battery could last longer but that could be a deal breaker for me.
James(Quote)
The sister question is what the replacement price of the main battery will be if nissan determines that it has to be replaced. is there any information? if it is low, which might be the case just for good will, then warranty does not matter so much. if sky high, like prius headlights….
and, what happens with leased cars? all covered?
RB(Quote)
I would be willing to bet/argue that the battery is part of the powertrain on this vehicle, and hope for a 5 year/60,000 mile warranty.
Nissan has been very reasonable so far, and not pulled any surprise punches. Buyer beware, but have some confidence.
Shannon(Quote)
RB – good point…3/36 would be fine if I could upgrade to a battery that has a 300 mile range for a reasonable price. I think an earlier post stated that the Nissan Gen 2 battery will have a 250mi range. An option to upgrade down the road would be a huge selling point for Nissan.
Shannon – Yes, Nissan has been reasonable so far with the LEAF pricing and I have been very impressed with the ordering process. Also, I have owned a couple of Nissan vehicles and have been overall happy with them and their dealerships.
James(Quote)
Off topic,
Statik, how are you going to handle the trolls when they show up?
Rashiid Amul(Quote)
OT,
Evidence that Nissan has kept close to the originally rumored 2800 lb. curb weight?
“….the Nissan turns in with precision and well-weighted steering while exhibiting almost no body roll and no understeer.”
Autocar first drive Leaf
http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Nissan-Leaf-Leaf/250574/
/ they also mention that they made the LRR tires squeal, so it sounds like they were driving hard enough to get a good feel for the handling
Carcus(Quote)
What are these ‘trolls’ you speak of? Never heard of them.
—I don’t know, just going to play it by ear/case by case. I’m a pretty open minded, tolerant kind of guy though. I really hate interfering with anyone who take the time to show up and be part of the community (regardless if they agree/disagree with whatever the topic is)
…so there is not going to be any editing/banning unless it is in really, really bad taste.
Jay (Statik) Cole(Quote)
James — I am optimistic that you are spot on. That is, I am thinking that at the end of 3 years or so there is going to be a much improved battery and that we will all be wanting to upgrade to have one. The questions are the cost, one hopes not too much, and the practical details of fitting something new into something old. So far Nissan has been promotional, so maybe they are thinking about giving us an attractive path — at least I hope so.
The wonderful thing about talking to about Nissan is that it seems more and more like a car that Nissan intends to deliver to real customers, not just a talking point.
RB(Quote)
Static,Thank You for your response to my message. I appreciate the opportunity to paticipate in the discussion. I deeply appreciate the quality and amount of work you put in to make this site meaningful. you are doing a great job.
My concern is that despite the best of intentions from Nissan no one reaally knows how long the batteries will be functional.Without more manufacturer support beyond 3 to 5 years uncertainity will be created that will cause significant impact on resale or alternatively a potential huge expense for an owner who likes to keep his or her cars for the longer term. By buying a Leaf I am willing to take on the risk associated with new technology but I would like Nissan to share more risk than a warranty limited to 3 or 5 years.There must be good reasons beyond legislation, that Volt and Toyota have 8 0r 10 year warranties. One of the reasons is probably that there is a reasonable need to protect customers. GM and Toyota accept this by staying in the market place selling their Hybrids
Stan Stein(Quote)
If my laptop was a Leaf:
I have a utility called coconut battery (v2.6.6) installed on my Macbook. The utility tells me that my current max battery capacity is 4885 mAh vs the original 5200 mAh means that I have lost 6.06% of my original capacity over the 32 months that I’ve owned this computer. That works out to 2.27% degradation per year, which would have my battery at 80% of its original capacity just shy of the 9 year point. The utility also tells me I’ve cycled my battery 444 times. If each cycle was worth 90 miles then that would mean I was driving 14,985 mi/year.
So there you have it. Assuming the Leaf battery performs as well as the one in my Macbook there’ll be nothing to worry about.
Carcus(Quote)
Thanks for the kind words Stan,
The really is no reason that Toyota and GM are doing the 10 year and/or 8 year, or than they have too. It is all on CARB. But you are right on the reasoning behind it, the original intent of the legislation was to protect the customers.
However, CARB was not thinking of a extended range EV, or even a strong hybrid out of Toyota (or Honda for that matter) when they wrote it. They were trying to protect the consumer in California was picking up a ‘rag-tag’ hybrid and or shotty conversion with a half dozen lead acid batteries popping around in the trunk that would have no life span.
I’m confident that it will be revised at some point; in fact A123 (li-ion battery maker) already made a run (unsuccessfully) at it this year.
There really is no benefit to the customer when a warranty is as long as 10 years, because that is a oppresive benchmark that most packs fail to reach. (especially if you are talking about a pure BEV with a DoD at 80% or greater)
The auto maker is not sucking up that cost, they allowing for it + some in the cost of the vehicle. If you have made the purchase it is comforting to have that behind you, but when a company like GM says they have to add a full replacement pack to the MSRP to fufill CARB’s andate, I think I would rather have the car for $8,000 less and take my chances. What are the odds you will need more than 2 packs in the first 8-10 years? Because that is what you would have to achieve to get your money back.
(disclaimer: GM said they don’t have to allow for a full pack in the price, but declined to offer what the new percentage is)
As long as the technology is sound, and you have confidence that if you treat your car properly you will achieve the ’10 year-70% capacity,’ I’d rather pay for the cost of the original pack.
Jay (Statik) Cole(Quote)
I don’t think the battery will be a huge deal, but what I was hoping for was some sort of longer term commitment or plan from Nissan, since they’re making this such a important step for their company and the world. They always talk about second life of the battery, but never tell us what they plan on doing about it. Do they want to buy them back from us or do they want us to sell them to a third party and buy a new one from them? I don’t really have a problem with a 5 year warranty, but 3yrs? Am i the only one who would take it as a slap in the face? They’re so high on this car, you’d think they’d stand behind it, warranty wise. That would really show that they’re confident and really believe in this vehicle.
john(Quote)
IMO Nissan will have to supply/facilitate some sort of a plan beyond 3/36. The idea of being totally at risk for a $10,000 (?) battery anywhere beyond the 3 year point is going to be too much for Pat Q. Public to stomach. Most “breakfast table discussions” will conclude it’s an unacceptable risk to the budget.
I don’t know what Nissan will come up with but I think something will be required if they want volume sales.
- Some sort of insurance that you can purchase?
- A guaranteed cost of replacement?
- A pro rated warranty after the 3 year point?
- ……?
Carcus(Quote)
I agree totally with Carcus concerning some kind of extention of warranty, especially with the most expensive electrical components. With the level of percision that vehicles are produced, I think a 3yr./36 month warranty is a joke. For us that base warranty would only last 14 months. I would like any vehicles sold in the USA to have a 5 yr/100k base warranty at no extra cost to ensure quality and confidence in these expensive products.
blind guy(Quote)
Yes, I’m sure extra cost extended warranties will be offered, and they will be profit generators.
Are you EV1 zealots reconsidering leasing a LEAF?
One problem with this generation of BEVs is that first adopters will tend to abuse them a bit.. and fast chargers will not help at all.
How will Nissan and GM determine if a warranty replacement is needed?
GM can always say that you are still getting 40 miles and yet the battery is down 50%, that would be considered dead by any battery expert. No new battery for you!.
As usual the answer is lower cost batteries.
Honda replaces batteries when they fail completely. Not sure what Toyota does since you never hear of any battery failures.
Herm Perez(Quote)
Doesn’t matter if they give a 40 year warranty. It will be pro rated any way. What is the pro-rated value of an 11 Y.O. propulsion battery. For the OEM, about the cost of the stamp on a post card, which follows up on the email that will say, your battery now has a value of zero and by the terms of your warranty we will gladly refund the 44 cent cost of the letter you sent us, nothing more forthcoming, please visit a dealer near you soon.
jeffhre(Quote)
I just read on the Coda EV web site that theer vehicle warranty is 3 years/36,000 miles and most importantly their battery warranty is 8 years/100,000. Nissan has publicly stated that their warranty will be competitve. It looks to me that Nissan has something to live up to here
Stan Stein(Quote)
My car has a 10 year/10,000 mile warranty – and it cost a lot less than Leaf. If Nissan expects to be competitive and appeal to the masses, they say they will have a competitive warranty. This is the competition that they should strive to match.
John R(Quote)