Nissan LEAF Lease

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At the end of March of this year, Nissan caught the EV community off guard by announcing a very reasonable price for their 100 mile electric car, $32,780 ($33,720 for the higher SL trim), which would be lowered to $25,280 (SL-$26,220) with help from the US federal government’s $7,500 rebate program.

Additionally, Nissan released details of a accompanying lease program. A consumer could find themselves driving a LEAF SV for $349 a month ($379 for a SL), with $1,999 down (which does include the first payment), and of course signing over those $7,500 government dollars to Nissan.

At this point of the article, if you really have your heart set on the lease, and have already made up your mind (or you are a Nissan executive that has just happened by the site today), I suggest you stop reading at this point.

There, now that those pesky people are gone. I’d just like to say that in relation to the value in buying the car, the lease is not very good choice.

I’m not going to go down a long and winding road about why I have that opinion. It is right there in Nissan’s fine print, “Based upon $32,780 MSRP plus $820 destination charge. Adjusted Net capitalized cost of $24,441 includes $7,500 manufacturer incentive for federal tax credit available to NILT by law, and $595 non-refundable acquisition fee.”

So with your payments and fees you are looking at well over $22,000!!! Gah! The whole car is only $32,780!

Now I know a lot of people are going to not calculate that $7,500 into ‘the math’ of cost of ownership, but that is cash in the bank to you if you are making the purchase of the car. In this leasing scenario it is certainly being transferred to the benefit of the manufacturer to make the lease more palatable.

Still for some, a lease is the way to go because they simply don’t care about cost, they don’t want the hassle of owning a car, maintaining it long term, or worrying about flipping it when they move to a new vehicle…and that is fair ball. The lease is for them.

Also, some people simply can’t come up with the $32,780+ while waiting for their $7,500 rebate. Again, fair ball, if they really want to drive a EV, this is the only option available, and the lease is for them.

So why has this article extolling the virtues of purchasing over leasing only appeared now on the site? Why not months ago? Well, there was as big question mark that maybe would make the lease worthwhile, and that was the battery.

Would the battery live up to expectations? Would it have problems? What was the longevity? All very much unknowns, and without a announced extended warranty at the time, it seemed like the battery would be a burden around the necks of purchasers. A leasing scenario in this case would put this weight on Nissan’s shoulders, a tradeoff of sorts would be in play.

If Nissan ened up putting a 3/36 warranty on the battery, or even a 5/60, the proposition of potentially owning a lemon after a few years, or even a car that had been outdated with new technology, may have meant a very low residual for the purchaser (as well as numerous headaches).

However, the surprise announcement from Nissan that they would offer a 8 year/100,000 mile warranty on the battery, while being a great thing for the purchaser, really put a nail in the coffin of fiscal sense for the leasee.

Why put out over $22,000 to drive a LEAF for 36 months only to give it back with nothing to show, as well as being penalized if you drive the vehicle over 36,000 miles (assuming the LEAF has a standard Nissan lease-3/36 and a .15 penalty per mile over).

Therefore, the few extra thousands to purchase the car gets you another 5 years and at least 64,000 miles of worry free driving (a electric car is all about the battery)…and no tricky ‘was it worth it/will it still be worth it’ to buy out my lease at this point math.

Then there is the ‘new‘ residual. When the battery situation was in flux, and a unproven commodity, the residual expectation was all over the map. Now, potential buyers of used LEAFs know they have a guaranteed 100,000 miles coverage in their EV, much more coverage than any standard car.

No one can say for sure, but I’d wager a 3 year old LEAF with less than 36,000 miles on it is worth a heck of a lot more than the $10,000ish premium you paid to buy it outright. Maybe even $10,000 more.

In this case…I’m a buyer.

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54 Responses

  1. Future LEAF Driver says:

    Wouldn’t leasing still be a good idea if in case you really want the 200 mile range battery in 2014. Otherwise you would have to try and sell a 100 mile range vehicle, when you know that EVERYONE will want the 200 mile range battery. Although a premium, leasing guarantees that you’re not stuck with old technology!!!

    GO EV!!!!

      (Quote)

  2. RB says:

    So the lease is about $0.60 per mile. That’s not out of the ball park, but it is not cheap either.

    $595 non-refundable acquisition fee

    Where did this fee come from?

      (Quote)

  3. RB says:

    An important question for someone who owns a lease 3-years out is what the government subsidy program looks like then. Will it have been used up? Will new Leaf prices have increased because of that, or the list price been lowered? Will there be a new government program with the same or even greater subsidy?

      (Quote)

  4. Paul says:

    Not sure you understand the lease (I have done several).

    $32,780 – Vehicle cost
    +820 – Destination Charge
    -7,500 – Tax Credit
    -1,999 – Initial Payment
    +349 – 1st payment (included in the 1,999 figure)
    ———–
    $24,450 (Very close to Nissans 24,441)

    This is the amount that must be financed over the 3 year lease period.

    The real question for me is what the residual value will be. That will reveal the interest rate on the finance charge (yes there is an interest rate component even though the leasing industry calls it something different).

    Will it be 0%, 2%, 5% or higher? After I know that then I can make a decision as the whether buying outright or taking the lease is a better deal. After taking into consideration all of the other factors of course. Like whether I intend to keep the car after the lease period ends or want the flexibility to get out if it turns out to be a lemon (not expected).

      (Quote)

  5. RB says:

    The real question for me is what the residual value will be.


    If you want to look at this question today as compared to a month ago, the change is that the battery warranty is better than expected. Thus the residual value is much higher than expected (0 years left on a 3/36 warranty versus maybe 5 years on a 10 yr warranty). Corresponding to the increased residual, the effective interest rate went up.

      (Quote)

  6. Not sure you understand the lease (I have done several).

    $32,780 – Vehicle cost
    +820 – Destination Charge
    -7,500 – Tax Credit
    -1,999 – Initial Payment
    +349 – 1st payment (included in the 1,999 figure)
    ———–
    $24,450 (Very close to Nissans 24,441)

    This is the amount that must be financed over the 3 year lease period.

    The real question for me is what the residual value will be. That will reveal the interest rate on the finance charge (yes there is an interest rate component even though the leasing industry calls it something different).

    Will it be 0%, 2%, 5% or higher? After I know that then I can make a decision as the whether buying outright or taking the lease is a better deal. After taking into consideration all of the other factors of course. Like whether I intend to keep the car after the lease period ends or want the flexibility to get out if it turns out to be a lemon (not expected).  (Quote)

    Curse these late night posts. The capitalization cost and outlay cost are so close, I ended up using the cap cost by mistake. I fixed it now. Thanks for pointing that out (and early in the day, lol)
    .
    Burden of Payments: 349 x 36 = 12,215
    Deposit: $1,650 (1,999-349 1st payment)
    Gov’t rebate: $7,500
    Destination: $820
    Total: $22,185 + the carry if you decide to buy it out (w/e that is, probably $1,500-$2,000 as a guess?)
    .
    Usually the premium on the residual value you have to pay coming out of a lease these days (as opposed to the total cost if you bought it outright) is in the 10-15% range for a decent selling car (in season).
    .
    Just as more of a personal curiousity thing I dug out some old lease programs on other ‘hot’ hybrids for another piece (figured that would be a good analog for the LEAF in 2011). The Prius topped out about 24% in 2007. But as you say, when we get the interest rate, we will be able to hash it out 100% the value of the pros and cons.

      (Quote)

  7. Paul says:

    Agreed. The higher the residual value the less of a deal the lease is. If the residual value is 20,000 at the end of 3 years the interest rate would be a whopping 12.06%. At 15,000 it would be 5.2%. If I intend to keep the car after the lease period and the going interest rate for new purchases at the time I buy is much higher than what Nissan is underwriting in the lease then I would be inclined to go with the lease. Otherwise I would go the other way – assuming of course I have the income and high enough taxes to qualify for the full credit.

    My comment about not understanding the lease though was directed to Statik.

      (Quote)

  8. Agreed. The higher the residual value the less of a deal the lease is. If the residual value is 20,000 at the end of 3 years the interest rate would be a whopping 12.06%. At 15,000 it would be 5.2%. If I intend to keep the car after the lease period and the going interest rate for new purchases at the time I buy is much higher than what Nissan is underwriting in the lease then I would be inclined to go with the lease. Otherwise I would go the other way – assuming of course I have the income and high enough taxes to qualify for the full credit.

    My comment about not understanding the lease though was directed to Statik.  (Quote)

    I think that is the issue here. The real world residual value of the car, versus the premium (under a lease) you look to be paying on the $32,780 sticker. I think for anyone who leases, they are almost going to be feel almost forced to buy out the lease, and eat the expected 15-20% premium they could have avoided, to gain some capital back at the end. Or just wash their hands of the whole thing. (imo)
    .
    For the people looking to maybe keep the car past the 3 years to drive, I think Nissan took a lot of the concerns away with the 8/100.
    .
    On the other side of the coin, for the people who like to flip in and out of cars, I think the ‘street value’ of the car will a lot higher than the lease residual at 36 months if they go that far because of the $7,500 off the MSRP, the high warranty and the limited availability of the car itself. You should also be able to ‘flip’ out of the car at almost any point during those first 36 months and be far ahead (comparatively speaking) because of what the government’s $7,500 balloon does for you…so the purchase makes more sense if you are a compulsive flipper, or have buyer’s remorse (as the case may be).
    .
    Don’t mind me…I’m just talking it out.

      (Quote)

  9. Paul says:

    For the people looking to maybe keep the car past the 3 years to drive, I think Nissan took a lot of the concerns away with the 8/100. Agreed!

    I think the ‘street value’ of the car will a lot higher than the lease residual at 36 months if they go that far; Also Agreed!

    I appreciate the work you do on this site and the effort it takes to do so. I read it every day :)

    Paul

      (Quote)

  10. For the people looking to maybe keep the car past the 3 years to drive, I think Nissan took a lot of the concerns away with the 8/100. Agreed!

    I think the ‘street value’ of the car will a lot higher than the lease residual at 36 months if they go that far; Also Agreed!

    I appreciate the work you do on this site and the effort it takes to do so. I read it every day :)

    Paul  (Quote)

    Thanks Paul, and thanks for keeping my numbers straight in the piece. I like it better when it reads accurate, lol.
    .
    So you need a job as a editor? Apparently I need two, early shift and night shift, (=

      (Quote)

  11. Van says:

    Outstanding article! Thanks Statik.

    I did not read the above comments, so this may be redundant, but if the 41,000 plus Volt
    can lease for $350 for three years, the Leaf should be able to lease for under $300 per month.

      (Quote)

  12. GeorgeS says:

    Wouldn’t leasing still be a good idea if in case you really want the 200 mile range battery in 2014. Otherwise you would have to try and sell a 100 mile range vehicle, when you know that EVERYONE will want the 200 mile range battery. Although a premium, leasing guarantees that you’re not stuck with old technology!!!GO EV!!!!  

    If I were Nissan I would offer something a little different.

    It would be a battery upgrade option. So you would pay X dollars up front when you buy the car (or preferably X dollars per month while you own it) in return for being able to upgrade to the latest battery technology at some time in the future. (which would probably be a 150 mile range pack.)

    This sort of arrangement would get us around having to flip the old Leaf and buy a new one just to get the “new higher range battery”. I believe Tesla did something like this with the Roadster.

      (Quote)

  13. GeorgeS says:

    Outstanding article!Thanks Statik.I did not read the above comments, so this may be redundant, but if the 41,000 plus Volt
    can lease for $350 for three years, the Leaf should be able to lease for under $300 per month.  

    Van,
    BTW back to DOD. Your 95% numbers yesterday were very convincing. I posted it in the Volt forum in the battery section. Would be interested in seeing what Herm has to say as he is kind of the battery expert over there. Unfortunately no comments yet.

      (Quote)

  14. SteveS says:

    Outstanding article! Thanks Statik.I did not read the above comments, so this may be redundant, but if the 41,000 plus Voltcan lease for $350 for three years, the Leaf should be able to lease for under $300 per month.  (Quote)

    You would think they might think about changing it, if the residual is going to be much better with the waranty then it is not a issue. I wonder if the volts $2500 deposit includes first?

      (Quote)

  15. Marcus says:

    So the lease is about $0.60 per mile. That’s not out of the ball park, but it is not cheap either.—$595 non-refundable acquisition fee—Where did this fee come from?  (Quote)

    Not uncommon, but the $595 makes a issue right there.

    Not everyone can pay cash, but I am getting almost nothing on my money as a short term guaranteed investment. The lease rate would have to be tremendously low to make it worth my while and as static said I am not sure what the value would be in doing it with the other things to consider.

    If you didnot have the cash you could probably still borrow at a lower rate and be ahead owning. Some could not finance at a good rate but then I looked at Nissan online and they also say the lease is subject to availability to well qualified lessees.

    I think almost always it is best to avoid leasing if you can. A exception is if you can write enough of the lease off as a business expense to make it a value.

      (Quote)

  16. evnow says:

    $24,450 (Very close to Nissans 24,441)This is the amount that must be financed over the 3 year lease period.The real question for me is what the residual value will be.

    Exactly. Lease is a form of financing – and can only be compared with buying a car with the help of financing. No point calculating the total outlay of leasing in 3 years to the cash outlay at the beginning for buying. Residual will decide whether the lease is good or bad, purely in financial terms.

    Depending on whether you want to buy out or sell off at the end of the lease, you can calculate the “break even” residual. Here is my math for for my state.

    http://evnow.wordpress.com/2010/08/05/nissan-leaf-lease-vs-buy-a-purely-financial-comparison/

      (Quote)

  17. lne937s says:

    Outstanding article! Thanks Statik.I did not read the above comments, so this may be redundant, but if the 41,000 plus Voltcan lease for $350 for three years, the Leaf should be able to lease for under $300 per month.  (Quote)

    I have a feeling that very few people will be paying just $350/month on their Volt lease ($12,600 over 36 months)- GM took too much control out of the hands of consumers. Through the GM dealer allocation process GM chose, consumers are pretty much stuck with what GM wants to distrubute and whatever the dealers are willing to charge. While $41,000 may be a limited-supply base model, I would fully expect that a typically equipted model will be ~$46,000, as indicated by the GM spec sheet (add $5000 to the lease). Also, according to surveys, the average dealer markup is ~$5000…. In total, that would be ~$22,600 over 36 months or ~$628 per month (before taxes)….

    However, while that may be the typical reality for the Volt lease, “$350″ does create the market perception of having a good lease price. Nissan did include “The actual lease offer for NMAC (“NILT”) will be announced in December 2010 when sales commence. Subject to change.” in the fine print, so the lease price may drop to stay ahead of the competition.

    http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/tags/show/price#/leaf-electric-car/feature/pricing_information

      (Quote)

  18. Marcus says:

    I have a feeling that very few people will be paying just $350/month on their Volt lease ($12,600 over 36 months)- GM took too much control out of the hands of consumers. Through the GM dealer allocation process GM chose, consumers are pretty much stuck with what GM wants to distrubute and whatever the dealers are willing to charge. While $41,000 may be a limited-supply base model, I would fully expect that a typically equipted model will be ~$46,000, as indicated by the GM spec sheet (add $5000 to the lease). Also, according to surveys, the average dealer markup is ~$5000…. In total, that would be ~$22,600 over 36 months or ~$628 per month (before taxes)….However, while that may be the typical reality for the Volt lease, “$350? does create the market perception of having a good lease price. Nissan did include “The actual lease offer for NMAC (“NILT”) will be announced in December 2010 when sales commence. Subject to change.” in the fine print, so the lease price may drop to stay ahead of the competition. http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/tags/show/price#/leaf-electric-car/feature/pricing_information  (Quote)

    It looks to me like the majority of GM dealers are going to upcharge one amount of another and some of the things you want will be a option, so you’re right, there lease will probably get people in to look, but when they sit down and come to a final number, there will be some confusion.

      (Quote)

  19. James says:

    As a comparison; a Nissan Altima hybrid purchase price at the end of the Lease is 56% of the original price. The LEAF with its 100,000mi battery warranty should be very close. I was on the teeter totter…but when Nissan announced the 8yr / 100,000 mile warranty I leaned towards the purchasing side. Hopefully Nissan will offer a longer range battery upgrade five to eight years down the road. I think it will take that long for a higher range lower cost battery to be on the market. Go EV’s!!!

      (Quote)

  20. Marcus says:

    Exactly. Lease is a form of financing – and can only be compared with buying a car with the help of financing. No point calculating the total outlay of leasing in 3 years to the cash outlay at the beginning for buying. Residual will decide whether the lease is good or bad, purely in financial terms.Depending on whether you want to buy out or sell off at the end of the lease, you can calculate the “break even” residual. Here is my math for for my state.http://evnow.wordpress.com/2010/08/05/nissan-leaf-lease-vs-buy-a-purely-financial-comparison/  (Quote)

    I get you are working everything to fit break-even figures. The assumption in there tho is that Nissan has a competitive to market rate after allowing all their fees that come with a lease, that is a gigantic big leap of faith. Leasing is a selling tool, what would have to come over them to do this? The rate & fees are for them in profit or to buffer them risk

    Purchasing straight will be of course be the best, but purchase finance would be 2nd best, no shot in the dark a lease then a buyout will get you the same value, & giving back the car end of a lease with this coverage would be idiotic.

      (Quote)

  21. DonC says:

    This is uncharacteristically confused. It’s simply not true that if you lease “with your payments and fees you are looking at well over $22,000!!!” You’re not paying $22k. In fact you’re paying anything remotely near this. What you’re paying 36 X $350 + a cap reduction payment of $1649. That’s more like $14,249.

    People make leasing more complicated than it is. Basically you’re paying interest to “borrow” the car for the lease period (the whole car not a part of the car) and you’re paying for depreciation that the car suffers during the lease period. That’s it except for the small acquisition fee which is simply a payment that compensates the lender for arranging for the lease. Whether the lease is a good deal depends on the interest rate and the residual, but if you intend to buy the car at the end of the lease even the residual doesn’t matter. (If it’s above market you negotiate with the leasing company to get it lower and if it’s low you snap it up).

    Also note that the lease provides the advantage of only paying sales tax on the full amount of the car minus the $7500 rebate, which where I am saves $750 (more than the acquisition fee). The disadvantage is that you end up paying sales tax on the finance charges, which at a 5% interest rate should be about $360. Something of a wash.

      (Quote)

  22. I confess the article did wander a little from what I envisioned it going, heeh. All good points above.
    .
    The crux of it was…or rather was supposed to be. With the 8 year/100,000 mile warranty, the fiscally smart thing is to possess the car longer than 3 years/36,000 miles, so why lease?
    .
    To be fair Nissan could have the mother of all leases and it could be as Don says, ‘ a wash’ (I still doubt it pretty strongly, but that is just my 2p…I probably should have allowed for that possibility in the article. I guess not all the pieces can be winners, lol)

      (Quote)

  23. JEff says:

    Jay,

    At this point of the article, if you really have your heart set on the lease, and have already made up your mind (or you are a Nissan executive that has just happened by the site today), I suggest you stop reading at this point.
    There, now that those pesky people are gone.

    You’re not going to get rid of me that easily!

    It is right there in Nissan’s fine print, “Based upon $32,780 MSRP plus $820 destination charge. Adjusted Net capitalized cost of $24,441 includes $7,500 manufacturer incentive for federal tax credit available to NILT by law, and $595 non-refundable acquisition fee.”

    As Paul’s calculation demonstrates, this tells us that Nissan takes the nominal vehicle selling price, adds in the fees, subtracts back out the tax credit, to come up with a net cost that they have to recover through the monthly lease payments and assumed residual value when they take the car back at the end of the lease. Fair enough.

    So with your payments and fees you are looking at well over $22,000!!! Gah! The whole car is only $32,780!

    No, what I’m looking at is 1 payment of $1,999 plus 35 payments of $349, for a total of $14,214.
    The whole car is $26,100, plus interest, if I pay enough in taxes to get the full $7,500 tax credit. Which I don’t. Based on my 2009 tax return I’ll get only $4,100, so my cost for the car will be $29,500. Plus interest. Taking a quick look at my credit union’s web site I might get an interest rate as low as 4.5% for 60 months, $550 per month if I finance the full $29,500. $200 more per month in payments. (This assumes that I have my tax credit immediately available, which I don’t, so the caculation is conservative.) In 3 years I’ve paid $19,800 – $5,600 more than I would have paid had I leased.
    Yes, if I buy I still have a car after 3 years. I also still have 2 more years of payments to make.
    The decision to lease v buy still rests on 2 factors – will I still want the car after 3 years (or will I want something better) and what is the residual value (will anyone else want the car or will they want something better) ?
    My bet, this being the 1st of its kind, is that in 3 years there will be something better, I’m going to want that something better, and so are most other people.
    So for me the math says go with the lease.

      (Quote)

  24. Jay,

    You’re not going to get rid of me that easily!

    No, what I’m looking at is 1 payment of $1,999 plus 35 payments of $349, for a total of $14,214.
    The whole car is $26,100, plus interest, if I pay enough in taxes to get the full $7,500 tax credit. Which I don’t. Based on my 2009 tax return I’ll get only $4,100, so my cost for the car will be $29,500. Plus interest. Taking a quick look at my credit union’s web site I might get an interest rate as low as 4.5% for 60 months, $550 per month if I finance the full $29,500. $200 more per month in payments. (This assumes that I have my tax credit immediately available, which I don’t, so the caculation is conservative.) In 3 years I’ve paid $19,800 – $5,600 more than I would have paid had I leased.
    Yes, if I buy I still have a car after 3 years. I also still have 2 more years of payments to make.
    The decision to lease v buy still rests on 2 factors – will I still want the car after 3 years (or will I want something better) and what is the residual value (will anyone else want the car or will they want something better) ?
    My bet, this being the 1st of its kind, is that in 3 years there will be something better, I’m going to want that something better, and so are most other people.
    So for me the math says go with the lease.  (Quote)

    I see your position and perspective on it 100%.
    You should definitely lease, (=

      (Quote)

  25. Herm says:

    BTW back to DOD. Your 95% numbers yesterday were very convincing. I posted it in the Volt forum in the battery section. Would be interested in seeing what Herm has to say as he is kind of the battery expert over there. Unfortunately no comments yet

    Sorry George.. did not see it, here is what I posted:

    The only way you could discharge it down to 5% would be in a very slow crawl-back-home mode.. that may not damage the battery too much but if for any reason you did not recharge it promptly that would definitely kill it. I just dont see any benefit for Nissan to allow this. Nicads and nimh can tolerate this but not lithium or lead acid batteries.

      (Quote)

  26. JEff says:

    The crux of it was…or rather was supposed to be. With the 8 year/100,000 mile warranty, the fiscally smart thing is to possess the car longer than 3 years/36,000 miles, so why lease?.

    Sorry Jay, I don’t see this. Especially without knowing what the other terms of the warranty are. Whatever those other terms are, I do agree that the extended period is a plus for residual value. On the other hand, if a 200 mile battery is available in 3 years or so, as many people seem to be expecting, that’s a negative for residual value.
    There are too many unknowns at this point to make a definitive financial calculation.

      (Quote)

  27. GeorgeS says:

    If James is correct and the residual comes in at 56%, that puts it at 18883$. Over the 36 months you have payed approx 14K into the car so if you buy the car at that point you payed 14000+18883=32883.

    This compares to 29187 if you bot the car outright. (33720+tax-7500). So it cost you around 3700$ more to lease it or around 100$/month.
    Doesn’t look that good,

    Seems to me if you lease you would almost never want to buy the car at the end of the lease period. You just go for a nice low monthly payment and then move on at the end of the lease period.

      (Quote)

  28. GeorgeS says:

    Jay,

    I think we can carryover any unused part of the 7500$ to next year. This is how it is working on my solar system.

      (Quote)

  29. DonC says:

    The crux of it was…or rather was supposed to be.With the 8 year/100,000 mile warranty, the fiscally smart thing is to possess the car longer than 3 years/36,000 miles, so why lease?  

    That is the question, well stated. I can think of a number of reasons to lease, some of which have been discussed.
    1. You need the financing and leasing is the easy way to go, an/or the interest rate on the lease is better than what you could get to buy.
    2. You will use it partly for business (It’s a breeze to calculate the business deduction: Business Miles/Total Miles X Lease Payment. Otherwise it takes you a day or two).
    3. You don’t know whether the car will work for you and you don’t want to commit (the big one IMO for the risk averse since the lease gives you an easy option of walking at the end of the lease period).
    4. You are a gadget freak who always buys the latest iPhone and you’re going to want the next new EV that comes down the road, cause the next one will be better.
    5. Your tax liability won’t be $7500 during the year you purchase so you won’t be able to take full advantage of the credit.

    FWIW based on current conditions, my guess is that the residual will be around $12.5K to $13K and the interest rate will be around 5%. Also note the lease rate is for “well qualified” buyers. By definition not everyone will qualify for this.

      (Quote)

  30. DonC says:

    Jay,I think we can carryover any unused part of the 7500$ to next year. This is how it is working on my solar system.  

    I thinking this is not true, though I don’t know. I’m saying this because the previous credits for hybrids and plug-ins could not be carried forward, and, unlike the provisions which modified the AMT treatment of the credits, I haven’t seen anything suggesting the carry over provisions have been changed.

      (Quote)

  31. CaptJackSparrow says:

    My Pops always said “If you can’t keep what you paid for, don’t pay for it”.

    I aint gonna lease. That’s sounds to me like jus a long azz rental. I hear Hertz will be renting.

    /but that’s just me, your friendly neighborhood trailer park maggot.

      (Quote)

  32. Herm says:

    I think the fiscally smart thing to do is to buy an off-lease 3 year old LEAF.. that battery will only have been driven an average of 32 miles daily and probably is good for 12 more years.. and you still got 5 years warranty. Residual value will be high under these conditions.

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  33. James says:

    The other issue with the Lease is the limited miles that you will be able to drive. I have not seen the official number but it should be between 12k to 15k per year depending on dealer and location.

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  34. JEff says:

    That’s sounds to me like jus a long azz rental.

    Yes that’s exactly what it is.

    By the way, what did you do will all the rum?

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  35. JEff says:

    I think the fiscally smart thing to do is to buy an off-lease 3 year old LEAF.. that battery will only have been driven an average of 32 miles daily and probably is good for 12 more years.. and you still got 5 years warranty. Residual value will be high under these conditions.

    That works if you can live with a 100-mile battery and nobody is selling a car with a 200 mile battery.

    Can we have a show of hands on this – how many of you will pay a high price for a used car with a 100 mile battery on the 2nd half of a pro rata warranty when you can get a new one with a 200 mile battery and full warranty period?
    (Yes, I’m making an assumption that the battery warranty will be a pro rata warranty, like tires. I also expect that it will be a limited warranty – there will be some types of ‘abuse’, like excessive quick charging or excessive ‘down to the last electron’ discharging – that will void or reduce the warranty.)

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  36. CaptJackSparrow says:

    Yes that’s exactly what it is.

    Maybe it’s just me but that’s a sh|tload of $$$ I would have to part with at the end of the 36 months. The gas savings wouldn’t even come close to it. No friggin way I’m leasing dude. Sure $348.00 per month sounds great but real world tells me that doesn’t have Tax, Lisc, doc fees, destination and Dealer markup (if any) fees.
    I know what your thinking…….financing it to “Buy” it is more on a monthly basis……
    But at the end, the mofo is mine!

    By the way, what did you do will all the rum?

    Margarita’s, Pina Colada’s, Daqueri’s…….sh|t like that. :-)
    /they have more Rum @ H( , y , )TERS. :-)

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  37. CaptJackSparrow says:

    Dang statik fatik bobatic, banana fana fotatik…….sup with the no CR & no ?
    Looks like Dan Petit was writing all these up. lol :-)

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  38. CaptJackSparrow says:

    No BR?
    Edit? What edit?
    lol…
    /jus yankin your chain bro.

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  39. Dang statik fatik bobatic, banana fana fotatik…….sup with the no CR & no ?
    Looks like Dan Petit was writing all these up. lol :-)   (Quote)

    .
    I confess to chuckling at your reference to Dan there Capt.
    .
    We are having some issues (obviously) with the comments coding on this build and we were going to pay someone to straighten it out (nothing is easy apparently), but the way things are going along, we will probably do a full site upgrade shortly and move to a new server. So it will get straightened out then. /crosses fingers
    .
    Might I suggest adding a ‘.’ in lieu of a hard return in the meantime? I think it is pretty professional solution, (=

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  40. Herm says:

    “That works if you can live with a 100-mile battery and nobody is selling a car with a 200 mile battery.
    Can we have a show of hands on this – how many of you will pay a high price for a used car with a 100 mile battery on the 2nd half of a pro rata warranty when you can get a new one with a 200 mile battery and full warranty period?”

    You sure it will be a pro-rated warranty?.. this is not a cheap 12v starting battery that we are talking about. In any case many people dont need 200 miles of range, I prefer 100 miles and a range extender trailer.

    When I buy my used LEAF I want a statement from the nice old lady.. yes it was all slow city miles :) It would be nice if the car had been kept in an air conditioned garage.. no Arizona hell cars for me please.

    I sure hope its not easy to break into the computer and do away with all the range limits.

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  41. FUTURE LEAF DRIVER says:

    Plus, I forgot to comment that I would be using my LEAF for work/business, so the lease would be a business expense, otherwise I might consider purchasing if it was mostly for personal use..

    My interest in the 200 mile range battery is that’s as far as I travel for holiday trips, anything further and it’s the plane! That’s why waiting for the longer range battery is tempting. It really would replace the gas vehicle entirely…

    GO EV!!!!

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  42. JEff says:

    “That works if you can live with a 100-mile battery and nobody is selling a car with a 200 mile battery.Can we have a show of hands on this – how many of you will pay a high price for a used car with a 100 mile battery on the 2nd half of a pro rata warranty when you can get a new one with a 200 mile battery and full warranty period?”You sure it will be a pro-rated warranty?.. this is not a cheap 12v starting battery that we are talking about.

    No, I’m not. Note that I did qualify that by stating that I was making an assumption. I do think it’s a very reasonable assumption, more reasonable than assuming an unlimited, non-pro rata warranty, but it is something that remains to be seen.

    In any case many people dont need 200 miles of range, I prefer 100 miles and a range extender trailer.

    I agree that many people don’t need 200 miles of range. I’m one who doesn’t. But from reading the comments on this and other web sites, however, I see an awful lot of people commenting on how much they’d like to have a 200 mile range, and more than a few of them saying that they won’t buy (or lease) until EVs have a range substantially exceding 100 miles.

    If the price differential is not too great I’d enjoy the extra flexibilty and freedom that the extended range would provide, even though I think 100 miles is adequate for me 95% of the time. I wouldn’t pay a whole lot for a bigger battery, but I’d certainly prefer a bigger built-in battery to pulling a trailer.

    When I buy my used LEAF I want a statement from the nice old lady.. yes it was all slow city miles It would be nice if the car had been kept in an air conditioned garage.. no Arizona hell cars for me please.

    Lots of people will be happy to give you such a statement. Ask also for the CarFax!

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  43. JEff says:

    …. Residual value will be high under these conditions

    General observation – not a response to Hem’s comment, it just gives me a convenient segway – many factors go into the residual value of an automobile. A lengthy warranty (that carries over from the original owner) is definitely one of them. But when all of the factors have been rolled in there is only one thing that sets the value of anything – what the market will pay. Until we have some used EVs, and in particular some used Leafs, speculating on what the residual value might be is just that – speculation.
    Great discussion today everybody. Keep it going. Jay – thanks for providing the forum.

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  44. Tall Pete says:

    I never understood the point of leasing a car. In this case, once again, it makes little sense.

    If you’re not able to finance a brand new car, buy a used one that you can call your own in a few years. A depreciated value is better than nothing and most people I know will keep the car a few more months/years after it’s paid until they decide when it’s time to get a new one.

    A lease is a way to loose your freedom.

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  45. DonC says:

    That works if you can live with a 100-mile battery and nobody is selling a car with a 200 mile battery.Can we have a show of hands on this – how many of you will pay a high price for a used car with a 100 mile battery on the 2nd half of a pro rata warranty when you can get a new one with a 200 mile battery and full warranty period?  

    Would depend on the price. Doubling the pack size doubles the cost, the mass, and the space needed to house it. When you look the scattergram for daily trip length, about 95%+ of all trips are less than 125 miles. There is a big break at 100 miles. To capture the remaining 3% or 4% you’d need to have a battery that could power the car for 400 miles.

    The EREV design is elegant but it has downsides. Not only does the ICE add mass and take up a lot of room, it also introduces many parts that will need to be serviced and replaced. There’s not a lot that can go south with an EV drivetrain.

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  46. DonC says:

    Maybe it’s just me but that’s a sh|tload of $$$ I would have to part with at the end of the 36 months. The gas savings wouldn’t even come close to it. No friggin way I’m leasing dude. Sure $348.00 per month sounds great but real world tells me that doesn’t have Tax, Lisc, doc fees, destination and Dealer markup (if any) fees.
    I know what your thinking…….financing it to “Buy” it is more on a monthly basis……
    But at the end, the mofo is mine!
      

    Put down the Kalua! It’s the same amount of money either way. Ha ha ha ha ha! Really it is.

    One big advantage for you would be that leasing takes the $7500 tax credit off the purchase price. That has been a big issue for you.

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  47. JEff says:

    I never understood the point of leasing a car. In this case, once again, it makes little sense.

    Perhaps because the features that make leasing attractive do not apply to you? They never have applied to me, and I’ve never leased a car before. If I lease my Leaf it will be a first, and it will be because there are some differences between a Leaf and ‘regular’ car that change the equation for me in this instance.

    If you’re not able to finance a brand new car, buy a used one that you can call your own in a few years.

    This is one of the differences. The last 4 cars that I’ve owned I did buy used. Thing is, if I want to buy an EV in the near future – because an EV is what I want – I can’t but a used one. There aren’t any to be had, and won’t be for a few years to come. I don’t want to wait that long. Maybe you do want to wait – there’s nothing wrong with that, we just have different ‘wants’.

    A depreciated value is better than nothing

    Not necessarily. This is only the ‘back end’. If one wants to get the whole picture one needs to look at the front end as well and consider what the difference between the two is. That’s what most people contributing to this thread are doing, each in their own way – comparing what they have to put in with what they’ll have left in order to make their decision. At this point we all know what we will have to put in, whether buy or lease. And we know what we’ll have left if we lease. What we are debating – and we are all speculating making different assumptions – is what we’ll have left if we buy.

    and most people I know will keep the car a few more months/years after it’s paid until they decide when it’s time to get a new one.

    That’s what I do. And I’ll agree that most other people also do, with one caveat – if they like the car and it meets their needs. But this is one of the unknowns about the Leaf – it’s new, and it’s significantly different from anything else we’re used to. It sounds good, those of us who are seriously considering one think it will meet our needs and we’ll be happy with on, but it remains to be seen whether reality will meet our individual fantasies.

    A lease is a way to loose your freedom.

    Nope. For the reasons I just discussed, a lease is a way to gain your freedom. But there may be a price to pay for that freedom.

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  48. JEff says:

    Would depend on the price.

    Yes, exactly. I wouldn’t pay much.
    But, based on the comments I read speculating about having 200 mile batteries only a few years down the road, I sense that a lot of people crave that bigger battery even if anaytical thinking, such as you have done, does not support their emotional judgement.

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  49. evnow says:

    I get you are working everything to fit break-even figures. The assumption in there tho is that Nissan has a competitive to market rate after allowing all their fees that come with a lease, that is a gigantic big leap of faith.

    There aren’t any unstated assumptions. The break even is calculated such that leasing & buying with financing would be cost you the same. No leap of faith … I’m not saying, for eg., that Nissan will put a residual value such that they would cost the same. We don’t know the residual value – but when they do announce the residual, we can look at this break even and say whether the lease is better or buying. Simple as that.

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  50. James says:

    Lease is best for people who trade in cars every couple of years. Also if they are betting on newer technoligy. Personaly I do not belive battery prices will drop that much in 3 years. I would wager it will take at least 5 years for us to see a big drop in prices. The majority of automakers will not be comming out with their EV’s in full production untill 2013. That will drive the prices down.

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  51. Matt says:

    Driving every day of the year for the whole battery capacity won’t reach 35,000 miles per year. More realistically, these babies are all going to be low-mileage because you can’t use them for situations that pile on the miles like 2-hour commutes, on-the-road sales trips, or cross-country jaunts.

    My guess is you will see a lot of folks with 7,500-10,000 per year max. This is clearly a city car or a second car, so it will see driveway time and short commutes.

    I wonder if you can use the monitoring to actually get a precise sense of the value of the car after a few years (how many discharge cycles, speeds driven, depth of discharge)?

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  53. QuantumSpook says:

    I have a few questions about the Leaf.

    First:
    How does it handle/how is power consumption in heavy rain/snow? Being a Michigander, this is critical.

    Second:
    Would it be feasible for a Leaf owner to buy extra batteries to have charged and ready to switch out(by themselves) to make a longer trip?

    Third:
    Could an owner possibly use solar panels to charge(and how many watts would be needed)?

    Any opinion is valued, thanks.

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