When Nissan decided to roll out the LEAF, they wanted to have a system in place to allow consumers to be able to buy the car at the price they advertised it at, free from dealer gouging. That system was to take reservations nationally online for $99, then allow the customer to choose which dealer to actually order the car from (and who Nissan would deliver to).
This process avoided the ‘allotment’ system that currently has Chevrolet dealers overcharging (or getting fair market value for…as your interpretation may be) by up to $20,000 per car. Chevrolet dealers are informed how many Volts they will receive (out of the 10,000 odd that will be produced by the end of 2011), and for many, knowing there will be nowhere near the supply to fill demand, this means the opportunity to set up a bidding process to find out which customers will pay the most.
Nissan system would penalize anyone who want to charge extra, because the customer has the power. The customer chooses the dealership he wants to deal with, and naturally the customer is going to choose the dealer that will sell him the car at the MSRP. In this scenario, if 3 dealers in a area are selling the LEAF at more than MSRP, and one at MSRP, that one dealer could feasibly get all the orders routed to him….at least thats how it was intended to work on paper.
This past weekend has seen at least two dealerships in California brake the MSRP barrier, and go online to offer discounts in the hopes of scooping up more deals. First was MOSSY NISSAN KEARNY MESA in San Diego (aren’t they always?), who is offering $500 off the MSRP to deal with them. Then not to be outdone, FONTANA NISSAN, which surprisingly is in Fontana California, did MOSSY one better by offering $1,000 off the MSRP!
Danny Truong from Fontana Nissan, informed forum readers at mynissanleaf.com that:
“You can place your order with us AND GET A $1,000 DISCOUNT OFF MSRP AT FONTANA NISSAN! We will also put you on our VIP test drive list. The moment we have our first LEAF in the showroom, we will contact you to schedule a test drive. Just contact Danny Truong or Joanna Stanley at 866-871-0015″
So if you want your LEAF for $1,000 off, and are in California, it looks like Fontana Nissan, is your hook up…although I have a sneaky suspicion that this will not be the last of the dealers offering a discount. In fact, a well placed, “This dealer will give me $1,000 off, will you match that?” comment, will now likely get you the same deal (or better) at several Nissan dealerships.
So which system is working out better? Nissan or Chevrolet? I guess that is a matter of prospective. From mine, its Nissan.
(thanks to evnow for the tip!)
![Will Ferrell Spotted Driving a Nissan LEAF [Video]](http://nissan-leaf.net/wp-content/themes/bigfoot/includes/timthumb.php?src=
http://nissan-leaf.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/wf.png
&h=48&w=48&zc=1)
Nissan has hit this one out of the park … if you’re a customer. Perhaps less so than if you’re a dealer. Then again the usual situation is that there are more cars than customers so this is more or less the typical situation.
In any event the entire process seems more open and fair than the dealer allocation method. Nissan is to be commended for coming up with a very innovative program that customers will like and that doesn’t violate all the state restrictions on car manufacturers.
As for the $500 or $1000 under MSRP, there are many parts to a car sale, purchase price being only one. Given that car dealers are professionals who do many transactions every day, my guess is that you will be happy if you skip getting a great deal and concentrate on getting a fair deal.
DonC(Quote)
DonC – I agree, I have been very impressed in many aspects of Nissan’s rollout of the LEAF. For starters honoring the wait list on the Nissan website was huge. I signed up for the GM Volt website a long time ago and it didn’t mean a thing. Then I panicked when I started seeing How the Chevy dealerships were gouging their customers for the Volt. I call the Nissan dealership that I selected when I put the deposit down on my LEAF. They assured me that they will not be charging over MSRP.
James(Quote)
There is no question that Nissan`s management has structured the marketing and buying process very well. Bravo Nissan for your ability to revolutionize the car industrys marketing, customer and dealer processes. It looks like GM is still stuck in the mud. Same old, same old. Change obviously is hard for them. The big open question yet to be determined is wether Nissan will be able to deliver to the US on the number of cars promised within a reasonable time table and before potential buyers get frustrated and move on to other purchases. Nissan has said they will produce 12,000 Leafs by the end of March 2011. (half of these understanably will stay in Japan to satisfy local orders) Nissan has also said they will deliver 25,000 Leafs to the US in 2011. It appears however that there will only be a trickle of cars coming to the US during the first quarter. Why is this? Is there a problem with battery production or some other production issue? stanley
Stan Stein(Quote)
Also, look at the Global rollout numbers for the LEAF that was discussed on an earlier post.
13,000 units in 2010
Somewhere between 63,000 and 88,000 in 2011
200,000 to 300,000 units in 2012
Go Nissan!!! And the LEAF..
James(Quote)
It just doesn’t feel right. Hot car = less than msrp. It seems like todays news is always better than the day before. Goes against everything I have learned when looking to buy a car. fantastic
SteveS(Quote)
So, for someone in SoCal, Leaf could be – 32,780 – 7,500 -5,000 -1,000 = 19,280.
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Volt = 33,500
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Volt – Leaf = 14,220 = Used Prius (plus 4kwh enginer kit ?)
evnow(Quote)
Don’t forget the free charging station, and if you are comparing to the Volt, you actually have to be able to get a BASE one at MSRP. Not a easy thing to do for 2011.
SteveS(Quote)
It does seem a little one side doesn’t it? (=
(thanks again for the tip ev!)
Jay (Statik) Cole(Quote)
Some pretty smart dealers out there. With the Leaf they have zero cost in the sale. The car is delivered to them at the request of the customer and the car is sold having never been on their books. The more cars you can sell with this system the better, even at a lower profit. It’s essentially a no cost revenue stream that creates advertising for the dealership and “positive feelings” for customers toward the dealership. Glad to see a few dealerships catch on to this.
MichaelP(Quote)
As most of you know, I am not in favor of a pure EV for my driving.
However, this dealer has my respect, unlike most of the GM dealers.
IMO, although Fontana Nissan is taking a $1000 hit when they don’t have to, they will earn that back for years to come. This really shows goodwill towards their customers.
I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a car from these people, but alas, they are on the wrong coast for me.
Rashiid Amul(Quote)
“So which system is working out better? Nissan or Chevrolet? I guess that is a matter of prospective. From mine, its Nissan.”
Ditto Jay, this just shows Nissan is doing it right!
GO EV!!!
Future LEAF Driver(Quote)
Anybody knows the invoice price of the Leaf (what the dealers are paying for the car) ? I read on Lyle’s blog that the Volt’s invoice price is 1800$ under MSRP. We now know the Leaf’s is at least 1000$ under MSRP, but I wonder what’s the full margin…
Gwido(Quote)
I am dealing with both sides now. Nissan’s system is way more professional. I canned an attempt to buy from a Ca dealer. The bottom line price after the 2000$ markup and all the accessories (that’s what they will come with) was 51K. So I am waiting for an AZ dealer and maybe Gen 2.
At the very least, I will let the dust settle.
Off Topic- re 7500$ EV TAX CREDIT.
I did some research and found out that Don C is correct that if you don’t have enough tax liability to match the credit you CAN NOT carry the balance to the next year.
Form 8936 is the form you will use to take the credit:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8936.pdf
So, if you are retired and you do not have enough tax liability AND you have a regular IRA. Pull enough out of the IRA so you get the full credit. Then reinvest the money and it’s there for you to use and the guvm’nt has payed the income tax for you.
GeorgeS(Quote)
Lets face it, pure EV won’t cover everyones needs.
However, when it comes to battery sizing, the pure BEV has an advantage. The volt uses only 50% of it’s pack to make life bogey. The Leaf 80%. So the Volt is carrying around about 200 pounds of battery it does not use towards AER.
GeorgeS(Quote)
Don’t forget the markup most GM dealers appear to be adding…which would add another couple-few Thousand onto the delta.
Ike(Quote)
Apparently not officially disclosed yet by Nissan to dealers. Rumored to be 4% – some 1,300.
evnow(Quote)
Steve,
Being a Prius owner, I looked long and hard into the Enginer kit.(The thread on Prius cat was about 30 pages long). If you have a very short in town commute at low speeds the kit is super. You can log gas free miles.
I have talked to Jack Chen (owner and engineer of the company). He will be making booster packs for the Leaf, He will start looking into it when he can get the system diagrams.
GeorgeS(Quote)
George – do you have a link to Jack Chen’s website? I would like to check it out and bookmark it in case I want to add range. =) Thanks,
James(Quote)
You’re right on this but old habits die hard. LOL However, note that if they dealers start competing very aggressively then the profits will go way down or even evaporate. If they make $2K on the deal there’s not a lot of money to be made if they drop the price to $1995 under MSRP.
It would be a good thing to leave some money on the table so the dealers are happy with the program.
DonC(Quote)
Agreed. It’s a matter of balance. We already know that servicing an electric car will be less interesting for the dealership. If they don’t get enough money from the deal, they will suffer greatly on both counts
Tall Pete(Quote)
It may not be a safe assumption that the dealers are going to lose repair business because of an EV. They will still need a certain level of repairs and battery maintenance. Will I take my LEAF to be serviced at Jiffy lube or the repair shop on the corner? No I will take it to the Nissan LEAF certified dealership. So maybe the aftermarket shops will be losing the business not the Nissan dealership.
James(Quote)
GeorgeS,
The volt is also carrying a 400 pound (my guess – including the exhaust and the cooling systems) ICE that few would put to use while driving locally. I’m a recent convert (after the price announcements) – from Volt to Leaf! Go LEAF!!!
Vats(Quote)
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Now is a good time to ask, why is Volt using only 50% DOD. Not just that – they are using liquid cooling which takes up too much space.
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Conventional Wisdom was that GM is doing this to give the needed battery warranty to get AT-PZEV designation. Apparently not.
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Both Volt & Leaf use batteries with the same chemistry. They both give same warranty. And yet, GM uses the battery inefficiently.
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Why ? Is it mainly because of lack of GM’s experience and expertise in Lithium batteries ? They made this decision sometime back – but now it is too late to change things … ?
.
evnow(Quote)
Vats – welcome aboard! I would love to know how many LEAF reservations were made on 7/27/10?
James(Quote)
Power has now been given back to the customer! Can you believe some people actually think Dealers are selling below MSRP just to be able to move these cars off their lot, as in nobody wants to buy them. Unbelieveable!
BLIND GUY(Quote)
James,
Thanks! Unfortunately I’m in Missouri – not one of the states set for the initial LEAF launch. But I’ll be waiting to jump in as soon as it lands in the ‘Show Me’ state. I hope the $7,500 rebate would still be there by then!
Vats(Quote)
James,
Just google enginer. Right now he only sells plug in packs for the Prius.
EV now-
Give the GM engineers a break. They do know what they are doing. They have taken a very conservative (yet costly) approach. I think we will see Gen2 Volt with the same 40 AER but with less than 16 kwh battery and possibly no liquid cooling. The car will be lighter and less expensive.
GeorgeS(Quote)
This is great news for EV customers! I would like to encourage people in the initial rool-out areas to post Dealers that are willing to sell Leafs below MSRP. It’s good to use the internet for the benefit of all. I am just hoping there will be Tax Credits still available when the next generation batteries are out for my benefit, of course.
BLIND GUY(Quote)
Very different batteries, even if the chemistry is SIMILAR.. apparently Nissan/NEC optimized the design for high temperature resistance and fast recharge.. their cells are tougher but also heavier for the same capacity. NISSAN automatically treats their batteries just as gently as GM, most people will use less than 40 miles of range every day.
Herm(Quote)
I think we need time to answer this question.
I GM over designing, or is Nissan under designing, or are their designs both right for their specific application.
I would be worried as Leaf owner, about that battery. Being exposed to temperature extremes will degrade any current battery chemistry. But how much over the life of the vehicle?
Just because Nissan promised 100k/8yr, does not mean it will actually make it. Also, what does Nissan consider as the point of warranty on the battery? If it has only 75% capacity, is it going to be replaced/refurbished/rejected?
Lots of questions…so few answers.
JEC(Quote)
Me need edit funktion!
JEC(Quote)
Nice! This is competition at its best. I wonder if GM (and their dealers) will be doing the same thing. It would explain the $41K MSRP…maybe GM left room to entice customers in the same manner. However as mentioned, GM does not have the reservation system for customers to pick their dealer.
JeffB(Quote)
I’m not there yet myself. But my wife will need to change her car in a few months and she likes the Leaf and since it’s our second car, a smaller range could work. Since the warranty annoncement, it seems a better choice than before. Let’s see when exactly it’s available in Canada and if she can wait until then.
Tall Pete(Quote)
Agreed. They had a baggage to overcome : the EV1 disaster. They needed to be very conservative and be absolutely sure the design would work flawlesly. They also wanted to overcome the range issue they had with the EV1. So they started the Volt program on these grounds.
Nissan is taking a bigger bet of going right to the electric only car. The air cooling might not be enough to get 8 years of reliable battery life. The range issue is real and will be annoying to some. What Nissan is doing seems more risky but they might end up the big winner if battery chemistry evolve rapidly and prices go down accordingly. Who knows ? We will see.
Tall Pete(Quote)
Here is some more info, some of you may like. Those dealers are also giving free flatbed truck delivery upto 200 miles.
evnow(Quote)
We will probably hit the 80k mile mark on the LEAF in about 6 years from now. Cars in Arizona last forever because of the dry climate (just need to wax 2x’s per yr). I am banking that battery prices will drop over 50% by then. We will own the LEAF so I can just drop in a longer range battery for relitivaly inexpensive compared to todays prices. Maybe even an aftermarket battery should be available by then. =)
JeffB – check out GeorgeS message above. Unfortunatly a GM dealer quoted him $51k for a Volt.
James(Quote)
Probably a bit of both for GM and Nissan. The Volt reminds me of the first generation of HP laser printers. It’s built like a tank. The LaserJet II had a lot more bells and whistles but they didn’t last half as long as the original. It’s common to see this in the first generation of any product because there is great uncertainty about what will break, so everything gets made well. Once you move to Gen II the cost cutting starts.
Where I am the weather isn’t much of a factor so the possibility of the battery overheating isn’t much of a a big deal. If I lived in Phoenix or Tucson it would be a concern. Both the Tesla Roadster and the MINI-E had problems with their battery packs overheating, and I don’t see how Nissan is doing anything that would fix this — in fact it’s doing less than Tesla did, though the Tesla batteries may have released more heat.
But time will tell. In some ways Nissan is willing to take some risks in order to move fast. That makes sense to me given their market position in the industry. Toyota, Ford, GM, and Honda have more turf to protect so they won’t be as willing to roll the dice, so to speak.
DonC(Quote)
Different chemistries & form factors. So, can’t compare.
evnow(Quote)
Thanks evnow, that’s very interesting! The closest Nissan dealer is about 120 miles from where I live.
Gwido(Quote)
Don, you have a link for this?.. the only thing I seem to recall is that Tesla had a problem with the software using too much power to keep the batteries refrigerated while it was sitting in your garage.. apparently newer software fixed this. Have not heard of any problems with the Mini except some problems at a race track, and that particular car was not standard and only used air cooling on the cells.. read the cool article on the race car:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/mini/7892078/MINI-E-race-car-review.html
Herm(Quote)
Yes, lots of bakeries try to unload stale bread at a discount….
Also, remember the California tax credit is only good for about 820 cars in 2010 and not funded for 2011… Also the Fed credit may not fully apply if you don’t have that much liability…
Enjoy chewing on the day old bread guys!
Jimza Skeptic(Quote)
You should probably know the facts before breaking out the sarcastic humor. The program judid get refunded for 2011, another 5 million (or 1,000 leafs).
SteveS(Quote)
What is judid? As in; “The program judid get refunded for 2011…” Must be a California “Ebonic” word.
Jimza Skeptic(Quote)
The Nissan Leaf is going to lead the way in EV vehicles. In 20 years I am sure everything will be EV or at least hybrid.
As for the $1000.00 under MSRP offer, I called people at AV Nissan and they said they will match any offer made by any other dealership. I am sure the same will be true with anyone’s local dealership. I would suggest people going with the dealership that treats them the best because in reality the price will be the same when all is said and done. I am going to use AV Nissan as my dealership because of the amazing treatment I received when buying my wife’s Morano.
Gaiaswrath8(Quote)
Another way to save on the Nissan LEAF
http://nissansantarosaservicecontracts.com/leaf-coverage/
Jesse(Quote)