August 27th, 2010. We have all been patiently waiting for this date. The day when the common man finally has the ability to order his own personal electric vehicle.
And by ‘common man,’ I mean anyone who was able to book their reservation in the first hour or so that Nissan’s reservation system went live this past May 15th…and who also live in San Diego (which is my own personal euphemism for the people privileged enough to live in California or any of the other early adopter states)
So, are you getting ready to go down and pester your local Nissan dealer to convert that online ‘request for a quote’ in a actual order as quickly as possible? Are you already checking your Nissan dashboard every 15 seconds to see if you can order yet? Well, don’t bother, due to some unforeseen problems, Nissan has delayed athe order process until Tuesday, August 31st. Take that San Diegans!
However, to be fair to Nissan, they have never publicly said that August 27th was going to be the day. We here around the ‘interwebs’ are a tricky, impatient bunch, we found that out all on our own. So they really can’t be held accountable for it, can they? /probably not
Nissan-LEAF.net reached out and contacted Nissan’s Head of Product Planning, Mark Perry about confirming the change, and any possible reason for it, and received confirmation that August 31st is the new magic date for consumers (with my thanks to Mark):
Jay:
We’ve always said end of August and no change to our plan. You can imagine doing everything we can to insure fantastic ordering experience.
According to dealers, the message for the internal delay to those expecting to take orders today was:
“…Nissan wants to make sure the process is bullet proof and wanted to further test the process and site since this is a ground break order process and customer driven . This will not affect production.”
Nissan does not expect further ‘non-hiccups ‘after Tuesday. So sit tight common man, your day is still coming…what is waiting another 4 days? Your used to it!
![Will Ferrell Spotted Driving a Nissan LEAF [Video]](http://nissan-leaf.net/wp-content/themes/bigfoot/includes/timthumb.php?src=
http://nissan-leaf.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/wf.png
&h=48&w=48&zc=1)
Three more days…tick tock, tick tock……
James(Quote)
“Would-be-Orderers” should take this time to get a verbal price-quote commitment from the dealer of choice and be at the ready at midnight 08/30 to RAQ. this will ensure that they go to to front of the line! Deal-ly Dal-ey around trying to ‘shop’ the dealers will surely delay where the order falls into the production orderbank.
leaf seller(Quote)
Sorry about the server issues the last couple of minutes fellas, the site doesn’t like breaking news apparently…I think it is all sorted out now, (=
Sidenote: The site is also not conducive to showing multiple daily posts on the front page, but there is a ditty today about Nissan’s new ad campaign if you want to check that out as well. Or you can jump direct to it here.
.
Jay (Statik) Cole(Quote)
Anyone,
Who will be ordering on Monday??
GeorgeS(Quote)
I wish all the early orders good luck. It will be interesting to read your comments about the experience. Not only the order process and the negotiation process with the dealer, but also the experience of actually owning the Leaf and driving it. My order process will not take place for about a year from now since I just signed up yesterday and Central Mississippi will not be in the forefront of deliveries. That does give me time to analyze all of your experiences and find more out about the Leaf after it has been released out into the world for several months. That puts me in a good position – in my opinion.
But, if I could take possession of a Leaf tomorrow, I would jump at the chance. So, good luck and happy motoring.
N Riley(Quote)
Lots of new informtaion is flowing today. We have complete information about lease (residue, money factor, mileage etc). Then we also have invoice prices. A new trim called SL-E (for Ecotality ?). Yet to hear anything about options, accessory prices.
More importantly, the price war has now moved to WA. Here is what I just posted on the Nissan Facebook.
Just when we thought, it couldn’t get better, we have a new deal offer. Rairdon’s Nissan of Auburn, WA is offering $100 below Invoice price. That would be a discount of $1,527 on SL and $1,487 on SV compared to MSRP. Also around $600 shipped to anywhere in the US.
evnow(Quote)
EV,
where are you getting this info?? I can’t find it on the website. Is the SL-E option for the L3 charger?? Are you ordering on Monday??
Who else is ordering on monday??
Also, I plan to order outof state. I know we can select a dealer from out of state NOW. But will Nissan eliminate this on the “dashboard”??
GeorgeS(Quote)
Last I knew there the 31st is on a Tuesday this year.
garrytman(Quote)
Don’t want to link it here – but you can get to the “other” leaf forum from the facebook link (see under Just Others).
http://www.facebook.com/nissanleaf
Nope – I’ve a Sept date. So may be Wednesday !
evnow(Quote)
Wednesday???
GeorgeS(Quote)
Yupe, a very busy day. I was debating on whether or not the lease details (ie residual) is post worthy. I’m leaning to probably not…might be a little dry for most. Good info on Rairdon’s Nissan of Auburn, WA, thanks ev!
Lease details/residuals
On base SV:
24 months – 51%
36 months – 45%
48 months – 41%
On SL and whatever SL-E is:
24 months – 49%
36 months – 43%
48 months – 39%
Jay (Statik) Cole(Quote)
Statik,I think that a post from you on leasing vs buying would be a good thing. You have a great practical way of looking at things rather than just looking at matters from strictly an accounting perspective. There also are people that have reservations that have little to no experince with leasing that could use your perspective. I for one, would like to see the difference in total cost of paying cash vs leasing. Especially because I have had a hard time trying to explain it to my wife. You can leave out of your calculation from my perspective the “time value of money” since money in banks or the stock market earns little to nothing right now.
Stan Stein(Quote)
Ouch. Definitely interesting. I was thinking 50% after 36 months. If a lot of these are going to be returned at the end of the lease period there will definitely be some good deals out there. If you want to lease it would be worthwhile to look at the 48 month version. You’re eating it the first couple of years.
DonC(Quote)
Statik,I think that a post from you on leasing vs buying would be a good thing. You have a great practical way of looking at things rather than just looking at matters from strictly an accounting perspective. There also are people that have reservations that have little to no experince with leasing that could use your perspective. I for one, would like to see the difference in total cost of paying cash vs leasing. Especially because I have had a hard time trying to explain it to my wife. You can leave out of your calculation from my perspective the “time value of money” since money in banks or the stock market earns little to nothing right now. what do you think?
Stan Stein(Quote)
Hrm, I will think about it. But I am probably not going to do it.
I would do a mock-up run through for you (and any one else who has a passing interest in this sort of thing) though…at least as how I understand the terms and conditions of the lease at this moment…and not allowing for the ‘value of money’ as your requested.
———-
The basic premium associated with leasing a base SV, over buying (not accounting for value of carrying) for 36 months is $3,685 based on the highest credit worthiness (not allowing for freight calculations, which is a inclusive item in the lease…$3,175ish if you are counting the savings on the 45% of freight you aren’t paying, but then adding back on the carry charge to the $820 based on a average credit score) on the most basic payment+residual+rebate+freight-residual calulation
Now you add or subtract various other factors, some of which depend on prospective:
From there you have to add on aquisition fee ($595), and disposition fee ($395), which is another $990 + tax….lets call it up to $4,200 premium now.
Depending on where you are you have to allow for reg/doc (In California Reg is $469 which you have to pay for up front, doc is $45). Technically this is a zero sum between the two, but if you own and drive longer than the 36 months you could look at it as your cost per annum being lower on these amounts after 36 months.
You also have to factor in mileage terms of the lease, for a lesser mileage lease, the residual on all models goes up by 1%, so there is $330-350 odd dollars of ‘value’ returned in there if you lease and do not buy.
On top of that, you have your credit worthiness to consider:
Tier 0 — 0.00204 740+
Tier 1 — 0.00224 700+
Tier 2 — 0.00264 660+
Tier 3 — 0.00369 620+
Tier 4 — 0.00454 600+
You also then have to assign a personal value on the taxes which you would pay on the full amount in a purchase scenario, or the smaller portion on the lease. Again, his would vary by state but lets just say, from very little, up to $1,600. You could consider this a plus on a 3 year lease versus a 3 year loan, but again, the forces of time, and holding the purchase would make this a net negative by month 51 of owning…assuming you would have leased another car of similar value. Average hold time of a vehicle is the main facotr in play here.
Lastly, is mileage, the lease has a penalty of 15 cents per mile, so if you blow over there is a adjustment that has to be made.
———-
Are you sleeping yet? This is why it probably will never be a post, lol. If anyone wants to check my math or mention anything I may have omitted that would be swell, I confess to just peeling this off the top of my head.
Long story short: I stand by my ‘leasing sucks’ for the majority of people stand point. As in, it sucks for anyone who likes money. These cars are definitely going to be worth over 20K after 3 years 30,000+ miles in my opinion. You will be forced to turned the lease into a purchase and take a 3-4K hit over just buying it outright, or walk from the lease and just ‘eat it’ as Don says, (=
Jay (Statik) Cole(Quote)
Yes Statik, I want to read your insight on the pros / cons. I did nto knwo they had a 48month lease. Also, 39% of residual value. Is that orginal price or the price the car is worth when returned.
James(Quote)
What kind of commitment do you make when you “place your order”? Do you need to put down more $$? Can you still back out before taking possession when it arrives in 3 months? I for one wouldn’t want to make any commitments until I got to test drive the car. (With my order date of November that shouldn’t be an issue, I suspect.)
Rich S(Quote)
See above. I edited my short repsonse into a long one, lol. I’m not sure what exactly your are asking about the residual, but the residual is based of the orginal MSRP + destination ($820)
Jay (Statik) Cole(Quote)
So it is off of orginal MSRP and thsi is correct below?
On SL and whatever SL-E is:
24 months – 49% residual would be $33,780 x .49 = $16,552
36 months – 43% residual would be $33,780 x .43 = $14,525
48 months – 39% residual would be $33,780 x .39 = $13,174
James(Quote)
Close, Nissan’s advertised lease price includes the $820 freight, but the residual calculation comes form base MSRP + $820 freight. (You made a little error on the SL pricing too – $33,720)
So on the SL and SL-E:
24 months – 49% residual would be $34,540 x .49 = $16,925
36 months – 43% residual would be $34,540 x .43 = $14,852
48 months – 39% residual would be $34,540 x .39 = $13,471
Other random fact: you can pre-buy extended miles for .10 a pop, rather thatn .15 later.
Jay (Statik) Cole(Quote)
Thank you….
James(Quote)
Quickly erase your calendar and rewrite it.
On this site it is forbidden to question the authorities.
The post is perfect, and the dates are exactly right.
Our motto: Yes sir, no sir, anything you say sir.
(smile, not serious)
RB(Quote)
What on earth is an “extended mile”?
All the miles around here keep their same length, day after day, week after week (except in loop roads around cities, of course). Sort of boring, but that’s how it is.
RB(Quote)
.
Good thing is they are giving 15K as std.
evnow(Quote)
The way I have it figured out, an SL trim would be approximately $3000 less out of pocket in a “buy” scenario vs the Lease & Buy scenario. As long as you did not have to get a loan.
James(Quote)
No clue what you are talking about.
I, in no way, edited my post.
I thought you were banned? Who is in charge of security around here?
Jay (Statik) Cole(Quote)
Nice re-do on RB’s grammar comment yesterday, Jay. Ahh, the power of the webmaster.
Karl Olmstead(Quote)
Where does the $3,685 number come from?
I thought the residual was very low but that was assuming the percentage was after the tax credit. That assumption was wrong, the residual is based on MSRP, so rather than being low it’s on the high end. Hence a more attractive lease.
I don’t agree that a lease is always a bad idea. I look at a lease as a purchase loan with a balloon payment. Whether it’s better than taking a loan or paying cash just depends on the terms. Leasing can be costly but no more so than buying a new car every few years — same difference really.
Given all the unknowns for the technology, and how it will work for buyers, a lease seems like an option people should consider.
DonC(Quote)
If I told you I would have to….well, you know.
I suppose I should have showed that math too. The whole comment seemed like it got out of hand there a bit, so I kept it tight and skipped it.
That $3,685 is the basic premium straight, before allowing for the freight (which is actually included in the lease, but I took it out at first to break it down to the core number, before bringing it back in), and then continuing on through all the other nonesense/fine print you have to factor in (the rest of the post), and less of the interest earned or carrying charges (as Stan requested I leave out)
Here is the math:
MSRP $32,780
Residual: $14,751
Govt Rebate: $7,500
Deposit & 1st payment: $1,999
35 payments @ 349: $12,215
Total Outlay: $21,714
Total Outlay to lease then purchase: $21,714+15,120= $36,465
Cost to Purchase Outright= $32,780
(net of all the nonesense)
Difference: $3,685
Because there is so many factors (both positive and negative) after this most basic number, and because people’s interpretation of the whether those were benefits or hinderances I went through all that jazz individually, rather than trying to draw a conclusion to a specific bottom line, so people (at least the 3 that actually read it all) could draw their own conclusions on how they think it all shakes out.
The straight shot is you are paying a premium to lease (regardless of however you want to consider the numbers). Now you could have reasons why you are a ‘lease guy,’ saying you will not buy the car out, but Nissan’s model does not allow for that without you taking a huge bath and leaving a lot of money on the table.
The fact the car will be worth well over the $15,120 residual (which is the actual residual off of the base model) after 3 years with less than 45,000 miles. At least $5,000 to $8,000 higher (given Nissan’s 8 year/100,000 mile warranty, and the fact the $7,500 gov’t rebate will have started, or almost started to be fazed out in 2014)…so unless you feel like giving that money away to your local Nissan dealer, you have to buy it out at the end and suck up those lease losses…whatever they might be.
If you lease, your best case is losing somewhere around $3,000-$4,000 on the lease when you end up still buying it out.
-or-
If you just turn in the car, you are still walking away from netting yourself $5,000-$8,000 in cash by buying it out and flipping it, or better yet, turning it in on a new purchase, where you would also recover the tax portion on the $20,000-odd value of the car….which would be another $2,000ish in value (at least) in California
/this is why I hate lease discussion, and will not be doing a post on it, lol
Jay (Statik) Cole(Quote)
OK. I see what you’re doing. So here is the issue. The premium you’re ascribing to the lease is really just the financing charges. If you took a loan you’d also be paying finance charges. So it’s a little misleading to say you’d be paying $32,780 because if you took out a car loan you’d be paying $32,780 + interest on the loan. At 5% that would be $1639 for the first year.
Now even if you paid cash you’d be giving up some opportunity at making money. No big deal if the money is sitting in a bank account making your essential .5% interest, but if it were in a Treasury paying 8.5% that would not be so good. Or maybe you have a hot stock on the line. Whatever. This is why I say whether leasing or buying is better just depends on the leasing and financing deals you have available and your situation.
DonC(Quote)
Statik, thanks for endeavoring to feed our insatiable appetite for news.
I have been told that I will have a September order date, any word on if this is going to be early or late September? BTW I am located 30 miles east of Los Angeles, I guess this is also considered one of the early delivery areas?
Buzzzzzzzz(Quote)
Yupe, sure I agree 100%
I would have accounted for it, but the whole process really started because Stan asked me to work the numbers backwards in a thread (which I decided not to do-wisely, heeh), but without any of the “…value of money, since money in banks or the stock market earns little to nothing right now”
Sounds like Stan is in the group where he is money sitting around he can divert to the car, which would be a much differenct scenario than two people looking at either fianancing or leasing.
If your at Tier 0, over 740 on the old credit, your looking at 5.2% with the lease, and you should be looking at access to 3.75% on financing if you do it yourself. This of course could meaning a equal monthly outlay if the loan is over around 7 years, after you account for the $1,000 odd in fees. So you are looking at maybe $2,200ish in this scenario as the premium.
Then you still have the value of taxes paid/not paid on a new trade-in to add on top. But the way Nissan has set up the low residual, you are now always going to run into the fact you have to buyout the car at the end of the lease, or walk away from at least another $5,000. So why even start the process? Again, unless you don’t like money.
Jay (Statik) Cole(Quote)
Are you guys Seinfeld fans? Statik is the Webmaster nazi – No Post For You!!!
James(Quote)
I think Stan is in a minority group and DonC is looking at it much more reasonably. Most people who want to buy will either have to finance or will have investments to cash in if they want to buy.
Because banks and money market funds are paying negligible interest these days and the stock market is on a roller coaster, as Stan points out, my investment money (not retirement fund money) is in a [federal] tax-free municipal bond fund that’s been paying ~7% interest for the past year, down from about 8% prior to that. It should be needless to say that I do not want to be cashing out any of that fund both because the value is lower than it used to be because of the market and because I do not want to lose the income it’s earning.
Everyone who has extra money may not be doing with it the same thing that I’m doing, DonC mentions Treasuries, but if they’re leaving the money in a bank account as Stan suggests then they are passing up the earning opportunities that do exist.
JEff(Quote)
Hey DonC,
Where can I buy one of those 8% treasuries??
Just kidding, I get it.
Hey James,
I am. I have seen each one around 5 times. Of course I have a high tolerance for repetition (engineer). Also, beer helps as you don’t remember it anyway.
GeorgeS(Quote)
I should come here for financial advice!!! 7&8 percent!!!!! For guaranteed returns more than a perentage point or 2 you have to lock up for a long time. Think that is not how leasees think.
Imagining you are going lease for 3 years and walk away, while investing in a guaranteed product to
`beat Nissans lease financing rate
`beat the fees
`beat the residual loss over fair value
is a daydream, and you still have all your money locked up, and you are stuck in a lease too, if you bought the car you could do whatever you wanted
RicksEV(Quote)
No, you do not. You can buy a bond fund today and sell it tommorrow. Although you would have to hold it for at least a month to earn any of the fund’s monthly dividend payments. And the value of the fund will fluctuate so selling could result in a loss of principal – or a gain – depending on your timing.
Caveats aside, one can earn a decent return and still cash out at any time should cashing out become either necessary (you need the money) or desireable (you find a better investment opportunity).
JEff(Quote)
I’m actually not sure the residual is that low. To some extent the Leaf is tech, and new tech makes old tech less desirable. I think Nissan is taking some risk here. In this regard, I don’t think that Nissan will have run through its rebates in three years. Maybe the fifth year?
In any event, if the residual is low, and you are looking at being able to buy a Leaf for $5000 under market, you can assign the lease for $5k. IOW your buyer poays you $5K and steps into your shoes after the last lease payment is made (or earlier). This is fairly easy and there are no sales taxes due on the sale of the assignment.
DonC(Quote)
I agree that the residual does not seem to be low. If the improvements that a lot of people here are expecting to be made in the next few years do happen – e.g. 6.6kW charging, 200 mile battery – it’s going to depress the value of the first batch of Leafs.
Just out of curiosity I looked up the residual values for my wife’s car – a Honda Odyssey Touring. 54%, 48%, and 43%, for 24, 36, and 48 months, respectively. The Leaf isn’t much below that.
On the other hand, for my car (I’m not going to admit what it is!) that the Leaf will replace, the residuals are 37%, 29%, and 24%. Now that’s low!
JEff(Quote)
Pink Miata?
/couldn’t resist…my apologies
Jay (Statik) Cole(Quote)
52%, 45%, and 40%, for the lowest value model listed. Color not a factor.
http://www.cars.com, but there may be other sources also.
There’s a lot of info on leasing and lease calculators out there, probably worth reading before making a decision.
JEff(Quote)
Off the subjest (sorry),
Thought you guys might be interested in this aftermarket charger that could be used on your L3 port. Not sure I understand it completely.
It’s 12Kw (compared to 3.3 on the onboard L2 Leaf charger.
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=42&category_id=14&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=64&vmcchk=1&Itemid=64
GeorgeS(Quote)
Good catch on that PFC50 charger George.. it simply feeds DC into the battery at a preset current or voltage level.. that may or may not work on a LEAF… it depends if the LEAF has the smarts to control the charger… usually a way to monitor/balance cell voltage and a way to ramp up/down the charging current. The cost is nice and indicative of what a Nissan Class 2 charger would cost once you weather proof it and get it UL certified. You could fast charge the LEAF in two hours with that one.
Herm(Quote)
Looks interesting, would it actually work? Would there be danger to the car if you used it or void the warranty
Bill(Quote)
Herm,
Thx for the explanation. I had a hard time understanding the write up. It did not look like it had the smarts to do a CC, CV charge and certainly not able to balance cells…..and like you say we need to know more about how all that is accomplished within the Leaf….
If you figure the stock L2 charger INSTALLED price is around 2200$ another grand and some of your own home wiring and you could have a pretty fast home charger.
I want L3 for my Brammo. think how fast you charge 10 kwh. If you pushed the pack to 4C. you could jam the whole 10 kwh in 15 minutes. so a quick 2 kwh juice up would only take 3 minutes and get you another 15 miles or so down the road.
GeorgeS(Quote)