Nissan LEAF FTC Mileage Sticker Revealed: 96-110 Miles of Range

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2011 Nissan LEAF FTC Sticker

A little over a week ago, the EPA released its window sticker and fuel economy ratings for the Nissan LEAF, which showed the car had a MPGe rating of 99, and a expected range of 73 miles.

At the same time, it was also announced that the FTC would also being affixing a sticker that only displayed the estimated range, and that range would be between 96 and 110 miles.

Why would there be two stickers? Why do they confict so much?  Well, basically there  is a 25 year old Energy Policy and Conservative Act that requires the FTC to do it.  (If you want to learn more about that, how it is calculated…and why they let the manufacturer police themselves on getting it, you can click here)

However, the actual sticker was not released, and/or any information that it might hold.  So, finding ourselves with far too much time on our hands, we sent out some requests for it.  And a few days later, Nissan kindly send us one.  Complete with peel and stick window instructions.   /wave

81 Responses

  1. Keith Tomilson says:

    That is more like it !

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  2. Future Leaf Driver says:

    Hey, look at that! Just what Nissan claimed at the electric drive tour, approximately 100 mile range depending on conditions!

    GO EV!!! GO ~100 MILE, SILENT RUNNING, PURE EV, LEAF!!!!

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  3. TRONZ says:

    That would be 70 more miles a day than I usually need. I do have a few busy 50/70 mile days here and there so its incredible I will do them all without one drop of gasoline… EVER!

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  4. DonC says:

    I’m accepting bets.

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  5. TRONZ says:

    Very well. I bet DonC my Nissan Leaf will never burn a single drop of gasoline…EVER!

    … this is the part where he will begin a rant on and on about “just a longer tailpipe, blah, blah, blah

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  6. Future Leaf Driver says:

    Very well.I bet DonC my Nissan Leaf will never burn a single drop of gasoline…EVER!… this is the part where he will begin a rant on and on about “just a longer tailpipe, blah, blah, blah  

    I’ll second that bet! No gas EVER! Longer tailpipe?!? LOL!!!!

    GO EV!!! GO “NO GAS” PURE EV LEAF!!!

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  7. Jimza Skeptic says:

    Very well.I bet DonC my Nissan Leaf will never burn a single drop of gasoline…EVER!… this is the part where he will begin a rant on and on about “just a longer tailpipe, blah, blah, blah  

    What about your other car? I would bet your gas consumption with the Leaf will be very similar to someone who uses the VOLT. Except, the VOLT driver only needs one car. Overall that means lower expenses and lower carbon footprint (It takes a lot of energy to make that second car).

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  8. Jimza Skeptic says:

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  9. bt says:

    The real range test is just days away if we are to believe Statik(Ido). Let’s see what real people get in real driving conditions.

    I’m gonna guess it’s much closer to the FTC #s rather than EPA(minus the occasional lead foot). And noting the article above, as I read it, that is a Japanese government claim of 124miles under its driving regimen–which of course is even more encouraging.

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  10. Carcus says:

    Except, the VOLT driver only needs one car.

    Will the Volt tow my boat? Haul my motorcycles? Carry a sheet of plywood back from Home Depot?

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  11. Carcus says:

    The two drive schedules for Leaf FTC sticker:

    UDDS (urban):
    http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/methods/uddsdds.gif

    HWFET (highway):
    http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/methods/hwfetdds.gif

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  12. blind guy says:

    On one hand, I can picture people learning how to drive electric and getting the most out of their EV, after, of course, having some fun with the instant torque. On the other hand, people who live in hot or cold climates will have a range premium to consider first as shown on the Nissan Leaf web site under range. Sorry I can’t figure out how to post links yet.

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  13. DonC says:

    I’m gonna guess it’s much closer to the FTC #s rather than EPA(minus the occasional lead foot).

    Nah. Average drivers will be closer to the EPA range. My informed guess would be 78-80 in decent weather. Road and Track will get 45!

    At this point we have a good idea of what the Leaf’s range will be. Just do the math. The Mini-E had an FTC range of 136 miles and Mini-E drivers got around 100. The Volt has a rating from the EPA of 35 miles and most drivers are getting around 38 miles. Working from either the Lea’s FTC sticker or the EPA sticker you end up at 78-80 miles, which, FWIW, is exactly what MSNBC got during its testing.

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  14. DonC says:

    this is the part where he will begin a rant on and on about “just a longer tailpipe, blah, blah, blah  

    As Jimza Skeptic points out, the problem has nothing to do with a longer tailpipe argument and everything to do with the practical range limitations and driving other cars to make up for that range limitation. Are you really only going to have a Leaf? Or are you going to also have a gasser? And if you are, are you going to drive the gasser? And if you do then what does this do to the argument about never burning a drop of gasoline? Just curious.

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  15. DonC says:

    The two drive schedules for Leaf FTC sticker:

    The EPA uses the same two drive cycles when calculating its sticker. it just applies an adjustment for real world driving.

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  16. DonC says:

    Connected to the topic of range is how many hills you have to climb and how effective regen will be. Here’s an interesting video which contains an interview with Mickey Bly from GM, in which he says the regen efficiency for the Volt is 30%-35%. That’s considerably better than the 20% or so you’d see on a Prius but it still means that your’re losing a lot of energy when hill climbing and accelerating.

    So what does this mean for range? Well if you drive up and down 1000 meters, which is steep but possible in SoCal where the canyons run East-West and the roads go North-South, then you’d be looking at using 4.75 kWh (1750 kg X 1000 m X 9.8 / 3600) needed for hill climbing. If the regen is 30% efficient that means you’d be losing 3.3 KWh to the hills. Assuming you’d get 80 miles using 20 kWh of energy, or 250 wh/mile, this means hills could reduce your range by 13 miles.

    Fast accelerations work the same way.

    One more incentive to lose weight! Or to live in Iowa.

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  17. DonC says:

    Forgot the cite to the Bly interview. (Where is the edit button?) http://twit.tv/gtt11

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  18. Carcus says:

    On hill climbing and cold/snowy weather in a BEV:

    Electric Cars Can’t Handle Cold Weather? Myth Busted
    http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1052024_electric-cars-cant-handle-cold-weather-myth-busted

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  19. xRB says:

    bt said—

    The real range test is just days away if we are to believe Statik(Ido). Let’s see what real people get in real driving conditions.I’m gonna guess it’s much closer to the FTC #s rather than EPA(minus the occasional lead foot). And noting the article above, as I read it, that is a Japanese government claim of 124miles under its driving regimen–which of course is even more encouraging.  

    .
    Once we get into customers driving their own cars on a repetitive route, there is going to be a lot of variation reported. That’s because, as we all know, range is a strong but inverse function of speed, together with the number of starts and stops. There are going to be people who drive routes at an even speed of only about 25-35 mph, and they are going to report some high range numbers, likely well in excess of 100 miles. Others are going to be on 70 mph routes, possibly in traffic with some marked slowdowns, and their numbers will be lower. It will be interesting, and we want to hear from everybody. :)

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  20. TRONZ says:

    Very Nice! The Nissan LEAF Japan site is Live now. They get all the cool stuff!

    http://ev.nissan.co.jp/LEAF/

    Makes me wish I could read Japanese! I give it a month before a clever person starts selling some of these cool accessories in an eBay store. The JDM Aero kit looks nice.

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  21. stuart22 says:

    .
    Once we get into customers driving their own cars on a repetitive route, there is going to be a lot of variation reported.There are going to be people who are going to report some high range numbers, others will be lower.It will be interesting, and we want to hear from everybody.   

    I sit here amazed that Nissan is selling and delivering a car with so many unanswered questions. If only they would have allowed a car test mag like Motor Trend to get their hands on one for several days of independent testing…. but no — Nissan is counting on their customers to make their $35K decisions with blind faith. Yikes…..

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  22. Future Leaf Driver says:

    I sit here amazed that Nissan is selling and delivering a car with so many unanswered questions. If only they would have allowed a car test mag like Motor Trend to get their hands on one for several days of independent testing…. but no — Nissan is counting on their customers to make their $35K decisions with blind faith.Yikes…..  

    Try and get out to an electric drive tour Stuart, you may find yourself liking the LEAF without the “blind faith”. People that attended the tour were very impressed with the LEAF; performance, handling, silent running, interior cabin space, to name a few!!!

    PS. You can email Nissan on the LEAF site if you have any questions. I did. And they answered them all! Here are just a few reviews for you to read…

    http://beta.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2011/
    http://www.plugincars.com/nissan-leaf
    http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20020742-48.html
    http://www.thecarconnection.com/overview/nissan_leaf_2012#100300610
    http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/27/2011-nissan-leaf-first-drive-road-test-review/

    GO EV!!! GO 100+ MILE PURE EV LEAF!!!!

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  23. Jobbeur says:

    What about your other car?I would bet your gas consumption with the Leaf will be very similar to someone who uses the VOLT.Except, the VOLT driver only needs one car.Overall that means lower expenses and lower carbon footprint (It takes a lot of energy to make that second car).  

    That is true. If you have to buy only ONE car, the Volt is just amazing. Its a strong hybrid with a good EV range when you look at it. But since most families have more than one car, Electric + gasser prevail. Unless You buy an hybrid + EV. Lets look at Lyle’s driving log :

    For EV’s range, lets assume you can use the 100 miles rule since you can plug/believe any stiker you want. We can alose demonstrate the math with lower maximum ranges as well.

    Out of EV range : 101.7+114+113.6=329.3 miles
    Volt’s gas used until now : 10.63 gallons of gas
    Now, this mean that an alternate gasser has to be 30.9784MPG in order to have the same oil usage as the Volt.

    You can buy an Equinox http://www.chevrolet.com/equinox/ at 32MPG and still be able to use the same amount of gas.

    I say this because many families have more than one car. So the “need” for a gasser is present anyhow. I ain’t telling people to buy 2 cars if they only need one. I’m just saying that a multicar family clearly need an EV instead of an hybrid. Based on Lyle’s drive log.

    If you assume an EV can’t be driven for more than 73 miles, here goes the maths:
    Out of EV range : 88.5+79.9+101.7+114+113.6+88.6=586.3 miles
    Volt’s gas used until now : 10.63 gallons of gas
    Now, this mean that an alternate gasser has to be 55.1552MPG in order to have the same oil usage as the Volt.

    Yet, this is a VERY conservative range (73miles) without recharging. Personnaly, I can get near 55MPG with my Hyundai Accent on highway and most trips are not that long so. I’d call this a better solution for many families.

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  24. TRONZ says:

    … or get a Nissan LEAF and never have it burn a single drop of gasoline… EVER!

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  25. JEff says:

    The Leaf’s target audience is the multi-car family, which is about two thirds of car owners. So depending on the range required, the Leaf might replace a significant portion of the gas that was used by one of the gassers with the other gasser being used somewhat more to make up the difference. On the other hand, the Leaf might totally replace the miles driven by one gasser plus a portion of the miles that were driven by the other gasser. Either way, a significant reduction in gasoline consumption.

    Using myself as an example, and I don’t claim to be typical, I drive my car ~10,000 miles per year mostly for commuting 40 miles 2 days per week and 50 miles 3 days per week, with limited short shopping trips on the weekends. My wife’s larger car is driven ~15,000 miles per year for her weekday shopping and virtually all of our weekend driving, and for all long trips. Even with a 73 mile range that might deteriorate to 60 miles in 4-5 years, the Leaf can replace all of my gasser usage and some of the weekend driving that is presently done with my wife’s car – I estimate that we’d use the Leaf for 15,000 miles per year and reduce her gasser mileage to 10,000 miles.

    My big concern arising from the more limited range is that I could fully recharge every night using 110 v if my 50 mile commutes were only draining the battery to 50% of its capacity. If I’m going to be draining it to 67% every day I might have to go to the extra cost of 220 v charging to have enough energy in the battery for the Friday commute.

    As Jimza Skeptic points out, the problem has nothing to do with a longer tailpipe argument and everything to do with the practical range limitations and driving other cars to make up for that range limitation. Are you really only going to have a Leaf? Or are you going to also have a gasser? And if you are, are you going to drive the gasser? And if you do then what does this do to the argument about never burning a drop of gasoline? Just curious.  

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  26. Gwido says:

    Very Nice!The Nissan LEAF Japan site is Live now.They get all the cool stuff!http://ev.nissan.co.jp/LEAF/

    Good find! All king of interesting stuff there. It seems that the cold weather package is only 33,600 yen, which is less than the cost of the white and blue paint options???
    http://ev.nissan.co.jp/LEAF/OPTION
    http://ev.nissan.co.jp/LEAF/GRADE/sim.html

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  27. xRB says:

    stuart22 said —

    I sit here amazed that Nissan is selling and delivering a car with so many unanswered questions. If only they would have allowed a car test mag like Motor Trend to get their hands on one for several days of independent testing…. but no — Nissan is counting on their customers to make their $35K decisions with blind faith.Yikes…..  

    Good point and quite right IMO.

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  28. DonC says:

    The Leaf’s target audience is the multi-car family, which is about two thirds of car owners. So depending on the range required, the Leaf might replace a significant portion of the gas that was used by one of the gassers with the other gasser being used somewhat more to make up the difference.

    You’re realistic and seem to have a plan, but I think you’ve missed the point. The point I was making is that the sound bite “and I’ll never burn a drop of gasoline” is, like most phrases designed for simplistic minds made prisoner by preconceived narratives, simply wrong.

    Your personal example illustrates this perfectly. There are two drivers in the family, your wife and yourself. You drive 10,000 miles a year. She drives 15,000 miles a year. You can live with the range limits of a Leaf. She can’t. You have two choices. You can get a Leaf or she can get a Volt. Which choice will result in less gas being used?

    If you drive a Leaf you’ll displace 100% of your 10,000 gasser miles. That’s great. But how does it compare? Well if she gets a Volt she’ll displace 80% of her 15,000 gasser miles, or 12,000 gasser miles. That’s even better. The point would be that driving a car that “never uses a drop of oil” won’t necessarily result in burning less oil if the limited range of that vehicle creates a need to put more gasser miles on some other car.

    As for needing a 240V “charger”, you probably will need one but you might be able to make do. You need 340 kWh per 100 miles, or 17 kWh for 50 miles. If you can put the charger on a 20 amp circuit you can pull 1.9 kW which will give you 17 kWh in 9 hours. With a 15 amp circuit you’d need 12 hours. In either case you’re not going to want other outlets or lights on the same circuit — you might trip it and have no charge in the morning — so you’ll want to run a dedicated circuit. And if you’re installing a dedicate circuit then if you have the amps then it would seem prudent to install the 240V station.

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  29. xRB says:

    Statik, could you ask Nissan what they have in mind for the block of states such as NC? I have a projected December order date, yet have not heard anything about chargers, never seen a Leaf, none at any dealers, and no test drives scheduled until March. What is Nissan’s picture of how things are going to proceed?

    Then again, I also haven’t received any more information on ordering recently —- maybe that’s the answer to the other questions :)

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  30. Grant says:

    As Jimza Skeptic points out, the problem has nothing to do with a longer tailpipe argument and everything to do with the practical range limitations and driving other cars to make up for that range limitation. Are you really only going to have a Leaf?

    I only have one car and I will be buying a Leaf next year to replace it. I don’t think this will be uncommon. I can always rent a car or swap cars with a friend on the rare occasion when I need to drive more than 80 miles in a day (and charging along the way won’t suffice).

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  31. TRONZ says:

    I confess, I do love simple! The point of Electric cars is to be propelled down the road by electricity. Ex; the Volt and LEAF drive off side by side to run errands. The Volt runs out of electricity at 40 miles and concedes the contest. The LEAF drives another 60 miles of errands… WITHOUT BURNING A SINGLE DROP OF GASOLINE…EVER!!!

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  32. IQ130 says:

    Your personal example illustrates this perfectly. There are two drivers in the family, your wife and yourself. You drive 10,000 miles a year. She drives 15,000 miles a year. You can live with the range limits of a Leaf. She can’t. You have two choices. You can get a Leaf or she can get a Volt. Which choice will result in less gas being used?  

    There is also a third choice buy a Leaf and a Volt, this will really help to save gas.

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  33. Jimza Skeptic says:

    Bottom line is that many of the Leaf early adopter such as Mr. Cole, Mr. Future Leaf, Mr. Tronz, etc. will probably have no problem hitting 100+ miles per charge. They will be keeping the tires inflated, using special waxes to reduce drag, driving the exact speed limit, coasting to a stop. They will wear heavy coats when it is cold to avoid turning on the heater, and will endure higher cabin temperatures in the summer to avoid the A/C drain, while keeping the windows rolled up to avoid drag. There will be publicity and stories of the 138 mile days these cats are getting posted in every blog and green car advertisement from coast-to-coast.

    However once Mr. & Mrs Joe Average buy this car, the tires will be low on pressure, windows open, or A/C cranked in summer and heater on high for winter. Car will not be washed frequently and little dings and clangs will create small amounts of drag. Jack rabbit starts, and “normal” breaking patterns will be…. the Norm! Then the stories of 50-70 mile per charge incidents will come out and the sales will drop.

    This car will end up being a niche vehicle that will work very well for a small percentage of the U.S. population. I am guessing that after the hoopla subsides, sales in U.S. and Canada will stabilize in the 25,000 per year average.

    Europe and Asia will be a different story. This car does have potential due to their gas economics, driving ranges, etc. But in the USA, people like to drive fast, hard and far. This car does not meet those requirements.

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  34. Herm says:

    Skeptic, that is true, the average driver will get much less range.. but a LOT of people just dont need long range.. older people dont drive that much, the ones that have money BTW.

    Also, many people will forget to wax the underbody of the LEAF, further reducing their range.

    Regarding tire pressure..most modern cars will let you know if the tires are underinflated, the LEAF does. I want to see the range that hypermilers will get once they pump up the tires to 100psi and get rid of dead weight passengers, I bet the expert ones get 200 miles of range.

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  35. DonC says:

    There is also a third choice buy a Leaf and a Volt, this will really help to save gas.

    My choice actually. The cars are quite complimentary and a Volt/Leaf combination should work for just about everyone. However, this seemingly simple point is lost on fanboys in both camps. From the Volt camp you see the stupid stuff about how Leaf drivers will be stranded when their batteries go flat,, as if people won’t figure out how to avoid this, and from the Leaf camp you get this stupid stuff about how their Leaf won’t burn gasoline, as if they won’t be going on longer trips in some other ICE vehicle which does.

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  36. DonC says:

    Skeptic, that is true, the average driver will get much less range.. but a LOT of people just dont need long range.. older people dont drive that much, the ones that have money BTW.

    He was right on with his scenario but yes, what you’re saying is also very true. Also Nissan has indicated it will have an improved battery at some point in the relatively near future.

    Did you catch the cite above to Bly’s comments about the Volt’s regen efficiency? This turns out to be well below my SWAG of 40%.

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  37. Carcus says:

    I don’t think there’s going to be very many “average” drivers purchasing the Leaf. Use the Prius as an example. How many Prius drivers ignore or are unaware of driving technique, and how to use the efficiency gauges? Very few. The Leaf crowd’s going to be the same as those who buy Prius — generally knowledgeable, conscientious, and tech savvy.

    Nissan knows who the market for the Leaf is.

    For some reason, GM seems to be ignorant in this regard when marketing the Volt.

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  38. Herm says:

    Did you catch the cite above to Bly’s comments about the Volt’s regen efficiency? This turns out to be well below my SWAG of 40%.

    Yes, my guess was way off.. perhaps is a case of GM beign conservative on the batteries.

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  39. Jimza Skeptic says:

    I don’t think there’s going to be very many “average” drivers purchasing the Leaf.Use the Prius as an example.How many Prius drivers ignore or are unaware of driving technique, and how to use the efficiency gauges? Very few.The Leaf crowd’s going to be the same as those who buy Prius — generally knowledgeable,conscientious,and tech savvy.
    Nissan knows who the market for the Leaf is.For some reason, GM seems to be ignorant in this regard when marketing the Volt.  

    You just validated my point. The average driver will not purchase this car. Just looking at the price and restrictions on this car, it will have its place. But it will be, as you state, for the small community of tech savvy…. The Prius has settled in at about 140,000 cars per year in the U.S. That is your market share. Prius is lower cost so it will hold on to a number of current customers. VOLT is higher cost, but provides the freedom to move about the country. It will take some of this market as well. There will be some organic growth, not just stealing from Prius, but a majority of those people are going to tip towards the VOLT. You may some initial peaks of 50,000-70,000/yr the first two years of full production. But after that it will dive down and level at about 25,000. Will it hit 30,000 some years? Maybe, but anything over 35K after the 2013 is only a dream (or nightmare depending on perspective).

    The VOLT allows you to be the good little angel Monday – Friday, but Drive, Hard, Fast and Far on weekends. Saint 5 days / Devil 2 Days!

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  40. Carcus says:

    You just validated my point. The average driver will not purchase this car. Just looking at the price and restrictions on this car, it will have its place. But it will be, as you state, for the small community of tech savvy…. The Prius has settled in at about 140,000 cars per year in the U.S. That is your market share. Prius is lower cost so it will hold on to a number of current customers. VOLT is higher cost, but provides the freedom to move about the country. It will take some of this market as well. There will be some organic growth, not just stealing from Prius, but a majority of those people are going to tip towards the VOLT. You may some initial peaks of 50,000-70,000/yr the first two years of full production. But after that it will dive down and level at about 25,000. Will it hit 30,000 some years? Maybe, but anything over 35K after the 2013 is only a dream (or nightmare depending on perspective).

    Wow. That’s quite a crystal ball you’ve got there.

    While you’re peering in there, why don’t you tell me what the price of a Volt and a gallon of gas will be in the next couple of years?

    /and what was your point, anyway?

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  41. Jimza Skeptic says:

    Wow. That’s quite a crystal ball you’ve got there.While you’re peering in there, why don’t you tell me what the price of a Volt and a gallon of gas will be in the next couple of years?/and what was your point, anyway?  

    VOLT to remain at $41K for next 3-4 years, then dropping to $34K.
    VOLT will stabilize at 70,000 per year after initial roll-out. Increasing to 100,000 per year when price drops. Finally leveling out at about 150,000 units when price is around $29,000.

    Gas will be stable for the next 5 years. Plus or minus about 25 cents. Possible spikes when there are hiccups in supply, but price will go back down. The Arabs have learned their lesson about high gas prices. The current $2.50 – $3.00/ gal (Wisconsin) is fine with them.

    Point? The Leaf is a niche car for techies. Not for the average Joe or Jane Doe. It will do very well in Europe and Asia. Their lifestyle and economics justify a larger audience. USA is all about freedom, not being leashed. 25,000 units/yr will easily be sold.

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  42. DonC says:

    Yes, my guess was way off.. perhaps is a case of GM beign conservative on the batteries

    Given the MPGe numbers the Leaf has to be in about the same range, maybe a little lower. So mass will matter, eh?

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  43. DonC says:

    The Leaf is a niche car for techies. Not for the average Joe or Jane Doe.

    I’ll concede that anyone who uses a Leaf could use a Volt but not everyone who drives a Volt could get by with a Leaf. So yes, the market for a Volt will be larger than the market for the Leaf. However, for those who can use a limited range Leaf that car might be the better choice. The Leaf should have much lower maintenance costs over its life. There just isn’t much that needs to be done to maintain a drive shaft. The Volt, on the other hand, will still have all the maintenance needs of a conventional ICE vehicle, albeit perhaps at a reduced level.

    This is why a Volt-Leaf combination would be better than a Volt-Volt combination if you can live with range limits.

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  44. DonC says:

    Given the MPGe numbers the Leaf has to be in about the same range,

    Meant to say “the same regen efficiency” not “the same range”.

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  45. TRONZ says:

    Wow! DonC-Jimza Skeptic seem to be spending ALOT of time and effort on a web-site that they oppose. With 15 posts on this topic alone! They are likely one person with multiple screen names and posting from the same IP. Very common by professional “advocates” assigned to canvas sites their corporations oppose. Yes, this is the very definition of a professional troll. I do not know of many people that can write complex derivative comments all day long trying to scare off people from buying an electric car.

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  46. ALSO TRONZ says:

    This is true true TRONZ right on the money! You make a good point!

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  47. YUP TRONZ AGAIN says:

    I also agree! … wow, were forming a small army of EV advocates here!

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  48. Carcus says:

    VOLT to remain at $41K for next 3-4 years, then dropping to $34K.
    VOLT will stabilize at 70,000 per year after initial roll-out. Increasing to 100,000 per year when price drops. Finally leveling out at about 150,000 units when price is around $29,000.
    Gas will be stable for the next 5 years. Plus or minus about 25 cents. Possible spikes when there are hiccups in supply, but price will go back down. The Arabs have learned their lesson about high gas prices. The current $2.50 – $3.00/ gal (Wisconsin) is fine with them.

    The masses will start flocking to a $35,000+ 4 seat compact car with 16kwh’s of battery liability AND ICE maintenance while gas is stable in the $2.50/gallon range???
    – yeah, right (I thought you were a skeptic)

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  49. TRONZ says:

    You see. It is not hard to game a web site and try to disrupt a conversation. I did the above in 60 seconds and could have put in any name and story I wanted. The fact is that if someone wants to oppose something thats fine but they wont tell you the real reasons why! The Troll posts above are aimed to do nothing but scare of would be LEAF buyers and prop up GM/Oil. These very large corporations do NOT want the LEAF and they are throwing millions of dollars at groups to dis-inform the public at a grass roots level. Why else would they be here?!

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  50. Carcus says:

    FWIW, JPMorgan’s crystal ball is quite a bit darker on petroleum:

    JPMorgan Says Crude Oil Price Will Reach $120 a Barrel Before End of 2012
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-03/jpmorgan-says-crude-oil-price-will-reach-120-a-barrel-before-end-of-2012.html

    /sustained oil prices of $100 to $120/bbl would most likely equate to U.S. gas prices of $3.50 to $4.00 per gallon.

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  51. TRONZ says:

    I am actually not interested in Miles Per gallon as my LEAF will never burn a drop of gasoline… ever! And now that JPMorgan is projecting Oil to rise to $120 a barrel, this is very good news.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-03/jpmorgan-says-crude-oil-price-will-reach-120-a-barrel-before-end-of-2012.html

    I agree with Nissan. After Americans break the “training” that we need oil for cars we can focus on the most important issue and thats Dollars-Per-Mile. The LEAF is far and away the most profitable car today and in this new Oil crisis. Ex; We get 300 miles for 10 gallons of Oil in our Civic which costs $32.00. The Leaf will cost $3.00 per 100 mile charge or $9.00 to go 300 miles. Thats a $23.00 savings…. five times a month is $115… over a year thats $1,380.00 saved…. what about when Oil is $4, $6, $8 dollars per gallon???

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  52. TRONZ says:

    Awwww Carcus beat me to it. It is worth noting that JPMorgan has been one of the few financial institutions that was spot on before and during the financial crisis. Their opinion carries alot of weight!

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  53. Carcus says:

    The VOLT allows you to be the good little angel Monday – Friday, but Drive, Hard, Fast and Far on weekends. Saint 5 days / Devil 2 Days!  

    USA is all about freedom, not being leashed.

    How much freedom is given up in $40,000 plus interest worth of car payments? Gas payments? Oil changes, emissions inspections, maintenance, insurance on a $41,000 car? Sounds to me like the Volt’s got a leash of it’s own.

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  54. JP says:

    $120 per barrel by 2012 is no big supprise. Vehical sales in China have been increasing by 30% year over year. We need to count ourselfs lucky…We are a two car family and have been for the past 15 years. I have been logging our daily milage for the past 8 months. Typically my car drives 40 miles per day and my wife drives about 18 miles per day. On the weekends we drive in one vehical and typicaly drive around 60 miles on Sat & Sun. Only on one occasion did we drive more than 100 miles in one day. A 100 mile EV will will do just fine for us.

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  55. stanley says:

    Both the Volt and Leaf should have people willing to buy today and for the next couple of years, at least. The cars satisfy two different customer markets. The range of 40 miles in the Volt is barely adequate to satisfy the needs of people who really want to go electric. But it is workable. The Volt will become less viable when electric cars like the Leaf can go 150 to 200 miles between charges. If and when this happens the Volt will be in less demand. If one is looking strictly at cost the Prius is the most viable today. If I can get my Leaf within a reasonable time in the future, i am willing to pay the extra cost over the Prius and ICE cars to help our country lessen oil dependency. Especially since I am in an area where there will be charging infrastructure

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  56. DonC says:

    They are likely one person with multiple screen names and posting from the same IP. Very common by professional “advocates” assigned to canvas sites their corporations oppose.

    Tell you what guy. Here’s a bet. If Jimmie and I are the same person I/We will never post again here. (I’m taking the liberty of speaking for him since I know we are not the same person). If we aren’t, then you’ll actually take the time to learn something before posting your BS. Simple stuff. Like how many kWh a Leaf will use per mile and how using a Leaf for some miles and a gasser for another doesn’t mean you’re not using any gasoline.

    Since you’re such an expert on all things related to web postings, and since you’ve made some accusations here, this should be an easy bet to accept. Time to put up or shut up my friend.

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  57. DonC says:

    JPMorgan has been one of the few financial institutions that was spot on before and during the financial crisis.

    Yes JP Morgan was “spot on” when it predicted $25/bbl oil in 2009. Perhaps they missed this one because they were so busy working on getting US taxpayers to bail them out of the consequences of all their other great predictions — to the tune of 25 Billion dollars — that their prodigious powers of prediction were compromised?

    Anyway, the analyst who got the price spikes right in 2007-2008 was Murti of Goldman-Sachs. Of course also predicted $200/bbl oil in 2010. The best lesson to be learned from those predicting the future prices of commodities is that even broken clocks are right twice a day.

    I’m not saying oil won’t spike to $120/bbl. I’m saying that I don’t have a clue. Put another way, it’s good to know what you don’t know.

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  58. xRB says:

    Tronz said

    Wow! DonC-Jimza Skeptic seem to be spending ALOT of time and effort on a web-site that they oppose.With 15 posts on this topic alone!They are likely one person with multiple screen names and posting from the same IP.Very common by professional “advocates” assigned to canvas sites their corporations oppose.Yes, this is the very definition of a professional troll.I do not know of many people that can write complex derivative comments all day long trying to scare off people from buying an electric car.  

    .
    Not sure where you are going, but so far it does not make sense. DonC is not a troll, and Skeptic makes some good points, even though most of them I don’t agree with.

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  59. DonC says:

    Typically my car drives 40 miles per day and my wife drives about 18 miles per day. On the weekends we drive in one vehical and typicaly drive around 60 miles on Sat & Sun. Only on one occasion did we drive more than 100 miles in one day. A 100 mile EV will will do just fine for us.  

    That’s great. But based on your driving pattern you’d use EXACTLY the same amount of gas if you got a Volt as if you got a Leaf. IOW the Leaf isn’t going to burn any less gas than the Volt.

    Doesn’t mean the Leaf isn’t for you. That’s a personal decision based on personal reasons. But using less gas shouldn’t be one of those reasons.

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  60. TRONZ says:

    Well MrC-Skeptic… what are you doing here? Hummmm??? I see alot of complex derivative dis-information and snake oil blah, blah comments. Why? Why do you spend your days canvasing comments on a LEAF fan site??? You will not be getting a LEAF and are obviously not a fan. What is your skin in this game if I may ask??? Seriously, what are you doing here??? Lurking here day after day writing endless negative comments is the very definition of trolling! This is not an accusation, it is a fact! Do you think being here will stop Nissans ships sailing from Opamma? Are you here to TELL US what we want? Are you here to save us from ourselves??? In contrast, I am here because I am excited. Like the vast majority here, I actually am a fan of electric cars. I will be getting my LEAF in less than a month. I am here because I will soon have a car that is incapable of burning a single drop of gasoline… ever! This fact is profoundly exciting to everyone here!!!

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  61. Jimza Skeptic says:

    I believe I had 5 previous posts before this one. Mr. Cole can probably easily verify that Don-C and I are not the same via location of IP addresses. While trolls generally dump mean, vicious comments there are others that merely provide counter points. Obviously I think the VOLT technology is superior for various reasons stated. I clearly believe that you and the several other Blog posters here will hit 100+ per charge. That said, the general public will not drive the car with care. Add in the lack of thermal management for the battery, and you have a recipe for the mass market to become disenchanted with the technology. In the USA, the driving habits and economics of this car do not shout mass market. As stated in previous posts, I think this car will do very well in Europe and some parts of Asia. The economics of fuel and driving culture is very different. If Mr. Cole really wants to investigate my green credentials, he can check my name in the Patent Office as I have a patent published (Pending) for printing conductive ink on thin film for solar panels. I work everyday on green technology. I just happen to know the cost involved and limitations of technology.

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  62. lne937s says:

    BTW, in looking at the Japanese site, under the Japanese testing, the LEAF gets a range of 200 km (124 miles)

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  63. Gwido says:

    BTW, in looking at the Japanese site, under the Japanese testing, the LEAF gets a range of 200 km (124 miles)  

    That’s probably a very optimistic figure. The Toyota Prius gets 84 mpg under Japanese testing, but I don’t know if they used the same testing cycle for the LEAF.

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  64. JEff says:

    You’re realistic and seem to have a plan, but I think you’ve missed the point. The point I was making is that the sound bite “and I’ll never burn a drop of gasoline” is, like most phrases designed for simplistic minds made prisoner by preconceived narratives, simply wrong.,/blockquote>

    Agreed

    Your personal example illustrates this perfectly. There are two drivers in the family, your wife and yourself. You drive 10,000 miles a year. She drives 15,000 miles a year. You can live with the range limits of a Leaf. She can’t. You have two choices. You can get a Leaf or she can get a Volt. Which choice will result in less gas being used?If you drive a Leaf you’ll displace 100% of your 10,000 gasser miles. That’s great. But how does it compare? Well if she gets a Volt she’ll displace 80% of her 15,000 gasser miles, or 12,000 gasser miles. That’s even better.

    To be clear, in my example the Leaf will displace all of my gasser miles plus some of her gasser miles because when we drive together on weekends we will sometimes take the Leaf when we would otherwise have taken her gasser. (Size-wise a Leaf is more suitable to most of our joint purposes than my gasser, so we use hers.) The Leaf cannot replace her gasser miles when she needs to drive but I’ve got the Leaf or when we take trips that exceed the Leaf range.

    The point would be that driving a car that “never uses a drop of oil” won’t necessarily result in burning less oil if the limited range of that vehicle creates a need to put more gasser miles on some other car.

    I’m not sure that I could come up with such a scenario.

    As for needing a 240V “charger”, you probably will need one but you might be able to make do. You need 340 kWh per 100 miles, or 17 kWh for 50 miles. If you can put the charger on a 20 amp circuit you can pull 1.9 kW which will give you 17 kWh in 9 hours. With a 15 amp circuit you’d need 12 hours. In either case you’re not going to want other outlets or lights on the same circuit — you might trip it and have no charge in the morning — so you’ll want to run a dedicated circuit. And if you’re installing a dedicate circuit then if you have the amps then it would seem prudent to install the 240V station

    I’ve already got a dedicated 110 volt 20 amp circuit in my garage, courtesy of the previous owner, in addition to the standard one 110 volt outlet that shares a circuit with some other outlets inside the house. So I’m hoping that I can make do. But if not, the main breaker is in its own panel below the meter pan on the outside of the garage wall (the main panel is in the basement), so it won’t be hard to mount a new, small, panel box on the inside of the garage with a single 220 volt breaker to serve a new 220 volt outlet.

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  65. JEff says:

    I agree with this. And I disagree with Mr. Skeptic that the Leaf will only be for the tech savvy. It will also be for people like me who are not EV savvy but who would like to go more than 40 miles without using gasoline, who need to go more than 70-80 miles only on occassion and have another vehicle in the family for such occassions, who like the larger people and cargo carrying capacity of the Leaf, and who like the significantly lower purchase cost of the Leaf.

    I’ll concede that anyone who uses a Leaf could use a Volt but not everyone who drives a Volt could get by with a Leaf. So yes, the market for a Volt will be larger than the market for the Leaf. However, for those who can use a limited range Leaf that car might be the better choice.

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  66. Nissan #1 says:

    For all the GM/Foriegn Oil Supporters,

    The Chevy Volt is and always will be a HYBRID, it is NOT by definition an Electric Vehicle..Sorry, an EV is a purely electric car PERIOD! The volt has electric motors that drive the wheels, but alas, it has a gas engine for battery re-charge, just like a train! Get over yourself GM and go back to the drawing board, better yet, send your “techies” to nissan, maybe they’ll learn something!

    Funny how history repeats itself, when Tucker came out with a revolutionary rear engine full size sedan and was already focusing on fuel economy and safety, it was none other than Harley Earl and company that blew him out of the water and killed the car, just like these trolls on this site are trying to do! Keep up the diligence TRONZ and I hope you have a blast driving your New Leaf! Make sure you stop by a Chevy dealer so they can see what a real EV looks like.

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  67. Nissan #1 says:

    Mr. Skeptic, WTH??? where do you get your info? first off, do you get any kind of “anxiety” when the light comes on your gas gauge, normal operation right? do you “know your range” when your driving your gas guzzler I didn’t think so. How about turning your focus on what it can’t do to what kind of good this car can bring to the world!
    where do I start, 0 emissions=less polution, doesn’t use fossil fuel=lower oil prices, because crude oil is a commodity and is traded all over the world, and it begins to stockpile, you cut production, you cut jobs, big corp losses their collective asses and has to cheap sell and so on, the biggest snowball on the planet, we stop caring about foriegn oil and our kids don’t have to go to far away lands to die for that oil..wake up people, this is our opportunity to tell Mr. Bigshorts to take his oil and stuff it.

    This is the beginning of a brand new world if we let it happen, It will take a while but there has to be a shift in big corp. It’s been the same since the Industrial Revolution at the turn of the 20th century!!! You wonder why were getting blown away by other countries in the technology race. We’re just like GM cars, slow to change and to react to the needs of the people, only care about themselves. My biggest concern is what my 2 year old grandson will be faced with because of outrageous corporate greed, unless Mr. Skeptic, you are in the top 5%, in which case, congratulations, you are in the Idontgiveashit category. Have a nice day

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